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The Great Whore – World Zionism about to Be Exposed and Destroyed by the Ten Kings – Rev 17:16 – End Time Revelations Revealed
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For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
The Judgment Of The Great Whore
The Judgment of the Great Whore is clearly defined in the book of Revelations, and it is at the hands of the ten kings who are a part of the last kingdom on earth before the return of Jesus Christ. The judgment of Mystery Babylon the Mother of Harlots, (or whores) is at the end of the Great Tribulation period, however the Judgment of the Great Whore occurs at the beginning.
Rev 17:16-17 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the (great) whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
The Judgment of the Great Whore is different from that of Mystery Babylon the mother of Harlots. Although there are similarities between these two that practice incredible deception and spiritual idolatry, they are most definitely different. The primary difference is that the Mother of Harlots gives birth to the Great Whore.
The words Harlot and Whore are translated from the same Greek word and therefore have the same meaning, so the phrase Mother of Harlots in Rev 17:5 is better translated as, the Mother of Whores.
The kings of the earth commit spiritual fornication with both the Great Whore and her mother that birthed her (Rev 17:2; Rev 18:3). Ironically the Judgment of the Great Whore is by the kings of the earth.
Religions all have one thing in common; they represent the traditions of men, and produce great confusion and deceptions.
Babylon is synonymous with confusion, and Jerusalem is known as the city of confusion (Isa 24:10).
The Judgment of the Great Whore comes as a result of the fourth beast system that will expose and crush her. As the creator of all false religions, it will be easy for Satan to expose the great carnage that they produced, and through lying signs and wonders convince the world that he is their long awaited messiah.
2 Thess 2:9-12 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Many religious people believe they are obeying god, but are in fact just obeying the spirit of the god of this world (Eph 2:2; 5:1-11; Col 3:1-14).
At the Judgment of the Great Whore, Satan will convince the majority that he is god.
Mystery Babylon the Mother of Whores, will dwell in and control spiritually, both the false Christ and the false prophet. They will represent the greatest deception the world has ever seen, even surpassing that of the Great Whore (2 Thes 2:8-12; Rev 13:11-14).
Mark 13:22 For a false Christ and a false prophet shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
The correct interpretation of Mark 13:22, is a false christ and a false prophet shall rise… This verse is in reference to the last days, a time of great deception unlike any other. It is during this Great Tribulation, that has a duration of three and a half years, that a great battle will be waged for the eternal destiny of much of mankind.
The Judgment of the Great Whore will occur and Satan will introduce to the world his false Christ, and false prophet of deception. This is a representation of The Unholy Trinity, Satan the Beast and the false prophet.
The great whore has a desire for absolute world domination, but it will not come to fruition.
At the Judgment of the Great Whore, her reign of terror will soon come to an abrupt and violent end, as her services will no longer be required by her mother that gave birth to her. Those that inhabit Jerusalem and are a part of this great idolatry, as well as those that have deceived and destroyed much of the world, and are the leaders of this spiritual wickedness and are soon to be destroyed by the Ten Kings. Satan will no longer operate through others secretly; he will openly declare himself to be the god of this world, and through the Beast demand to be worshiped as such.
The Beast will set up his headquarters in the holy mountain, which is in Jerusalem. During the time of the Great Tribulation, Jerusalem is referred to spiritually, as Sodom and Egypt (Rev 11:8). Contrary to the popular teachings of a rebuilt temple for the jewish people, this will not occur as the Judgment of the Great Whore eliminates this as a possibility. All of the deceived on earth will worship Satan and they will worship the Beast, he will not share the short time he has left, with a lesser imposter namely the Great Whore (Dan 11:45; Rev 13:4).
Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
The Great Whore does indeed corrupt the earth with the fruit of her spiritual idolatry, even the Christian faith has not been spared, as it too has been infiltrated with her intoxicating doctrines.
The jewish people claim that they are the chosen ones, and the establishment of the nation of Israel is fulfillment of God’s promise to them.
Amazingly enough, many gullible religious Christians buy into this lie.
The fact is that those who glory in the cross of Christ are the Israel of God (Gal 6:14-16).
The gathering together of the Elect by the Lord, to a Holy Jerusalem will not happen until Christ returns (Isa 51:1-19).
The Judgment of the Great Whore will be a devastating destruction, and will catch the deceived by surprise. These that have ruled and controlled most of the world through deception, violence and false weights and measures will be destroyed suddenly and without warning.
Matt 20:25-28 Ye know that the rulers of the nations exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Jesus declared that the scribes and Pharisees, not only would not enter the kingdom themselves, but all that followed their wicked doctrines would be dammed as well. The Judgment of the Great Whore will occur because this same spiritual phenomenon still exists today. People still accept these seducing spirits and doctrines of devils; they nor their teachers will enter the kingdom.
The Judgment of the Great Whore will prove that the Old Testament Law is not still in effect, and that Israel after the flesh, does not have a unique and separate destiny apart from the law of Christ.
The Judgment of the Great Whore will prove to be false the supposed seven year covenant that is to be made between Israel and the Anti-Christ. Scripture clearly teaches us that the Great Tribulation is three and a half years in duration, and the covenant is between Christ and His people.
At the Judgment of the Great Whore, Jerusalem the city of confusion, judaism, zionism and all that the Great Whore represents will be destroyed at the hands of the ten kings that serve Satan.
The judgment must begin at the house of God, which is the Church of Christ. If this judgment begins with those who claim to be Christians, what shall the end be of them that do not even pretend to obey the gospel of Christ? Many who claim to adhere to Christianity but practice deceptive doctrines, do not have the spirit of Christ, and will also fall prey to the stronger deceptive force during the Great Tribulation (1 Peter 4:17; 2 Thes 2:9-12).There will come a falling away from the faith before Christ returns, and if it were possible even the very elect would be deceived during the reign of the Beast (2 Thes 2:3; Math 24:24).
Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
The Old Testament law is finished and no longer in force. Those in Christ accept His new law unto life. Attempting to partake in something that is forbidden is disobedience. Not only is the practice of the works of the old law forbidden, they that feebly attempt to follow the old law are not partakers of the promise of Christ.
Col 3:5-6 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Idolatry through covetousness, as well as disobedience to Christ and His Gospel, is practiced by those that attempt to keep the old law (Gal 5:4). The Judgment of the Great Whore will remove this idolatry. However in part through the Whores deceptions many will follow the greater idolatry at the hands of the Beast and False prophet.
The Judgment Of The Great Whore link to article
There are 10 world regions the NWO has designated but far as I know at this time they do not have leaders over them.
Region #1 is Canada, US and Mexico.
http://www.his2ndcoming.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=58&Itemid=66
yeah, region #1 will become the North American Union, the #2 is already the European Union. Probably be an Asian Union #3 as well. But when the money changers have milked their paper dollar scam for all they can and bankrupt the US INC. once again we will have a new worthless currency called the Amero- kind of like the Euro.
Futurist gibberish mixed with just plain confused gibberish.
Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
The Old Testament law is finished and no longer in force. Those in Christ accept His new law unto life. Attempting to partake in something that is forbidden is disobedience. Not only is the practice of the works of the old law forbidden, they that feebly attempt to follow the old law are not partakers of the promise of Christ.
you really dont understand the bible……… “Christ” did not come and make a new law, he came and followed G-ds law, he fulfilled but did not end its righteous requirement. Man in his imperfection could never attain its standard, hence the need for a saviour. The law is a guideline been perfect for an imperfect man to strive towards….
Please consider these verses respectively:
Romans 10:4 – For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Romans 6:14 – For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Romans 7:7 – What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Romans 3:19 – Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Romans 3:31 – Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
James 2:10 – For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
Romans 7:6 – But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
Romans 7:12 – Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Galatians 5:18 – But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Romans 2:14 – For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
All verses taken out of context…. If the law is no longer valid, and you quote from Pauls writings or I shouldsay misquote from Pauls writings and claim Paul taught people law is no longer valid, when when Paul was standing before Festus on trial ACTS 25: – did he say “I have committed no offense – not against the Torah to which the Jews hold, not against the Temple, and not against the Emperor.”
Was Paul a hypocrite then teaching people law is no longer relevant but when standing trial claiming to keep it?
What about the council of Jerusalem? Read that very carefully.
sigh……reread the verses……
Do me a favor…instead school me on this verse if you believe the Old Law is still active.
Galatians 5:18 – But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
crowpie
I am not under the law i.e. I am not “under the condensation” of the law. but I must obey my Master Jesus Christ and He commands me to obey the Law — to live by the Holy Law as did HE.
I have been free from the penalty of the Law which is death by the sacrifice of Christ, I am no longer “under” the penalty of the law.
If one says they are no longer “under” the Law they are in effect saying God no longer has any authority over them.
If I were to “WILLFULLY” transgress the Holy Law then the Law condemns me to death and then there is no longer any sacrifice for sin — Christ can not die from me again.
“but I must obey my Master Jesus Christ and He commands me to obey the Law — to live by the Holy Law as did HE.”
Yes he followed the Old Laws, kinda…..he also flouted them.
Recall the washing of the hands incident, or shall I embarrass you thoroughly with that chapter and Jesus’ lesson to His disciples about not being concerned with the washing of hands and what they should eat.
That is TWO OLD LAW teachings that he soundly ignored and taught His disciples to not concern themselves over because prayer, Grace and Thanksgiving would purify what they took into their mouths, and because it is what leaves a persons mouth that defiles a person…..and because he knew that the OLD LAW was coming to an end.
Shall I go On?
crowpie
Do not confuse the 10 commandments with the traditions of the Jews nor with the “works” of the Law.
If Jesus Christ did not keep perfectly every one of the Commandments He could not have become our savior and are we not to follow HIM in a sinless life? or should we sin??
The Jews of His day were self righteous and Christ cut them to pieces for it.
The Old Law as you call it was in force before the creation of the world. If there was not a Law against murder and lying then how could Satan be called those names if there were no Law DEFINING what SIN IS. And Abraham kept the commandments and the statutes, they were in force from the beginning.
The 10 Commandments are the definition of sin, if there is no Law then there is nothing to repent of and really no need any more for the sacrifice of Christ.
Think of the Commandments as revealing to us the Divine Holy Righteous Perfect Nature of God the Father.
How can our Father’s Divine Nature be bad?? I know you do not want Him to lie to us.
Also, Paul talks of the “works” of the Law, the commandments tell us “not to work at murder or lying” etc so what are the works of the Law?
The Sacrificial Law which is our schoolmaster leads us to Christ i.e the need for His sacrifice for our sins and offering sacrifices is hard WORK.
the Sacrificial law was added because of sin, when Christ was offered for us He fulfilled all 5 types of sacrifices found in the first few chapters of Leviticus.
The Old contract is coming to an end not the Law and even the old contract is not yet ended, it will not ended until Christ had confirmed the covenant for another 3 1/2 years — remember He was cut off at mid week in His 7 year ministry.
“The Old contract is coming to an end not the Law , ”
Show me a verse where the scriptures read explicitly what you just wrote, or be accused of the sin of adding to the word.
Rev. 22:18I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.…
crow pie
that statement comes from combining two scriptures
Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (I HAVE COME TO FILL IT UP the LAW)— it is now both physical and spiritual.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
I.e. the Law ain’t going away—
and Hebrews 8: 13 the old covenant is “ready to vanish”
and that is your only comment???
what about the fact that the 10 Commandments reveal the Holy Divine Nature of the Father — that is not a quote from scripture that is an understanding of the Word of God that comes from 50 Years of study.
Crow pie
I have another way to look at this question of the Law;
The LAW of GOD — written on STONE, was safely kept in the Arc of the Covenant under the Mercy Seat in the HOLY of HOLIES – kept under the Throne of God the Father!
And so called Christians firmly believe Jesus Christ came in to the HOLY of HOLIES and into God the Father’s Holy Throne and cast out the HOLY LAW of GOD.
Crow pie is this what you are saying happened??
The whole duty of man from the beginning: Obey the Law of God!
Okay. Great so you do know both of those verses….and yet still you cannot make a distinction between what laws would or wouldn’t be changed or relevant under a New King?
Do you, or have you, ever heard of a change in ownership when the new owner change the locks on the property?
A country being taken over when laws didn’t change when the border guards didn’t change?
Christ made us a purchase. The Commands that Jesus gave us ‘contain the ten commandments’ which “HONORS HIS FATHER”.
Well said, hard to argue with the New Law of Christ!!
destined2bconfused
Love neighbor and love God! The two Great Commandments!
Please explain to me exactly how one loves either neighbor or God without using the 10 Commandments.
the first 4 are how one loves God
6 through 10 or how you love neighbor.
If I love my neighbor I will not fornicate with his wife nor steal from him nor murder him.
Are you purposely deceiving those the follow you??
Truthseeker,
So glad you asked…
John 14:15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Repent
“From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matthew 4:17).
•Follow Me
“And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men” (Matthew 4:19).
•Rejoice
“Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you” (Matthew 5:11–12).
•Let Your Light Shine
“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 5:16).
•Honor God’s Law
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill” (Matthew 5:17).
*Note it says “Honor” not remain under.
•Be Reconciled
“Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee; leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift” (Matthew 5:23–25).
•Do Not Lust
“But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell” (Matthew 5:28–30).
•Keep Your Word
“Let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil” (Matthew 5:37).
•Go the Second Mile
“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away” (Matthew 5:38–42).
•Love Your Enemies
“But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even the publicans the same?” (Matthew 5:44–46).
•Be Perfect
“If ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect” (Matthew 5:46–48).
•Practice Secret Disciplines
“. . . When thou doest thine alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: that thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. . . . When thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. . . . When thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; that thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly” (Matthew 6:1–18).
•Lay Up Treasures
“Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also” (Matthew 6:19–21).
•Seek God’s Kingdom
“Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you” (Matthew 6:33).
•Judge Not
“Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?” (Matthew 7:1–3).
•Do Not Cast Pearls
“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you” (Matthew 7:6).
•Ask, Seek, Knock
“Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened” (Matthew 7:7–8).
•Do Unto Others
“Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets” (Matthew 7:12).
•Choose the Narrow Way
“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it” (Matthew 7:13–14).
•Beware of False Prophets
“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?” (Matthew 7:15–16).
•Pray for Laborers
“The harvest truly is plenteous, but the laborers are few; pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth laborers into his harvest” (Matthew 9:37–38).
•Be Wise as Serpents
“Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves” (Matthew 10:16).
•Fear Not
“Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matthew 10:28).
•Hear God’s Voice
“He that hath ears to hear, let him hear” (Matthew 11:15).
•Take My Yoke
“Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light” (Matthew 11:28–30).
•Honor Your Parents
“For God commanded, saying, Honor thy father and mother: and, he that curseth father or mother, let him die the death” (Matthew 15:4).
•Beware of Leaven
“Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees” (Matthew 16:6).
•Deny Yourself
“If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?” (Luke 9:23–25).
•Despise Not Little Ones
“Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 18:10).
•Go to Offenders
“Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican” (Matthew 18:15–17).
•Beware of Covetousness
“And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth” (Luke 12:15).
•Forgive Offenders
“Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven” (Matthew 18:21–22).
•Honor Marriage
“And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder” (Matthew 19:4–6).
•Be a Servant
“. . . Whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; and whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many” (Matthew 20:26–28).
•Be a House of Prayer
“It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer . . . ” (Matthew 21:13).
•Ask in Faith
“Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea: it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive” (Matthew 21:21–22).
•Bring In the Poor
“Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbors; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompense be made thee. But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: and thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:12–14).
•Render to Caesar
“Show me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s” (Matthew 22:19–21).
•Love the Lord
“Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment” (Matthew 22:37–38).
•Love Your Neighbor
“And the second [commandment] is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets” (Matthew 22:39–40).
•Await My Return
“Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh” (Matthew 24:42–44).
•Take, Eat, and Drink
“As they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins” (Matthew 26:26–28).
•Be Born Again
“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again” (John 3:5–7).
•Keep My Commandments
“If ye love me, keep my commandments” (John 14:15).
•Watch and Pray
“Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).
•Feed My Sheep
“So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jona, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jona, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep” (John 21:15–16).
•Baptize My Disciples
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matthew 28:19).
•Receive God’s Power
“And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high” (Luke 24:49).
•Make Disciples
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations . . . teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen” (Matthew 28:19–20).
Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
Crowpie, what part of the law, specifically, is it that you don’t think we should abide by?
crowpie
All that you wrote explains in detail the 10 Commandments. The words of Christ are breaking down into fine detail how we are to live by the Holy Law of God.
Here is a bigger question:
The LAW of GOD — written on STONE by the finger of God was safely kept in the Arc of the Covenant under the Mercy Seat in the HOLY of HOLIES – kept under the Throne of God the Father!
And so called Christians firmly believe Jesus Christ came in to the HOLY of HOLIES into God the Father’s Holy Throne room and went under HIS Throne and cast out the HOLY LAW of GOD.
Do you think that is what happened?
The LAW that God the Father considers so HOLY it is kept under HIS Throne in the Arc of the Covenant?
God the Father is not trashing HIS LAW –it is not the Law fault we can not live by it – it is the carnal human nature we inherited from Adam and God is changing our carnal human nature — by the circumcision without hands He is removing our human nature and replacing it with HIS OWN Divine Holy Righteous Nature — He is putting in us HIS Perfect Nature.
The 10 Commandments reveal to us that Divine Nature — do you seriously want the Law that condemns lies to be cast away??
Please explain why the 10 Commandments are so evil?? I truthfully have never understood how anyone can believe that lie.
I Do understand why the 4th is so hated.
Scanner,
Can you not find something in the list I just gave you that covers all the Ten Commandments?
And What Part of Pauls teachings in Romans (verses listed above) do you feel are lies?
Truthseeker.
Lets get this out of the way before we discuss anything else.
You said:
“And so called Christians firmly believe Jesus Christ came in to the HOLY of HOLIES into God the Father’s Holy Throne room and went under HIS Throne and cast out the HOLY LAW of GOD.
Do you think that is what happened? ”
LOL…..my, but you assume much. Scripture plainly tells us that Jesus said he came not to do away with the LAW but to perfect it. I’m sure you can find that one. Below is just a scratch on the surface of the expectations of that perfection.
“All that you wrote explains in detail the 10 Commandments”
I’m so glad you noticed. But you greatly over simplify. There are a great many more expectations from The Bridegroom (Christ) of The Bride (The Church).
When a bride leaves the protection of her fathers house she should still “honor” her father and mother, (the old law for edification). However, she no longer lives by her Fathers rules, but by her Bridegrooms (Christs).
With the new freedoms of her Bridegrooms house, comes great responsibility. I would suggest re-reading that list of nearly fifty commands. It is quite a high standard. I dare say much more difficult if taken SERIOUSLY than old testament law…..primarily because it deals with reigning in our own personal behaviors.
And this is the most important part, that most miss in this argument…….In an ‘arranged marriage’ Christ wants most that His sacrifice not be in vain…..but that HE BE LOVED by His Bride, and that its members love one another……and that she be a worthy bride, like HIM…..reflective of the love HE showed on the Cross…..by loving ALL SINNERS….even while they are STILL IN SIN, after all He loved us sinners even as He hung on the Cross.
That “thought process” is not allowable under the OLD LAW.
Really, crowpie? Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed?
This isn’t about thinking Paul was a liar. This is about misunderstanding what Paul taught.
And your empty boasting doesn’t exactly compel me to engage in a debate with you, especially when the subject has been exhausted elsewhere, on numerous occasions.
Like this one:
/prophecy/2014/02/what-the-new-testament-says-about-the-law-made-crystal-clear-here-it-is-if-you-want-to-know-2458660.html
And, besides, you’ve dumped a boatload of verses and going through them all would be tedious and far too time consuming. Why not just focus on one verse? You’re engaging in information overload and that will do nothing to help your cause. If you only read the verses at a surface level, how do you expect to understand the deeper meaning? You shouldn’t. The nature of Scripture demands there be no contradictions and if you presume there to be any contradictions you’ve set yourself up for failure. Am I right? If one verse says something, then they all say the same thing. Any inconsistencies we see are nothing more than a reflection of our shortfalls. You’ve chosen to believe as you will and you’ve made it evident that nothing anyone else says will sway you away from your current self-elevated position. Thus a debate with you on this matter is pointless. As such, I’ll repost my contribution to this subject from a while back and I’ll leave it at that. Any further snide remarks and empty boasting on the subject will be ignored (which is why I’ve stayed away from this thread – but I find it interesting that you are unwilling to answer my simple question all while being so demanding).
Matthew 5:18: “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”
That doesn’t get any clearer.
Matthew 5:17-20:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
In Matthew 5:17, the Greek word used for ‘destroy’ was καταλύω (kataluō), which means “to tear down,” “demolish,” and/or “do away with”. It was a commonly used word around the 1st century A.D. when referring to the demolition/destruction of buildings/temples as well as the nullifying or replacing of laws and constitutions. In this verse, the Messiah explicitly says that destruction is not His mission in regards to the Law. Such a strong statement on the issue of the Law is proof that, to one extent or another, His teachings were being misinterpreted by His opponents. The Messiah, therefore, found it necessary to speak on behalf of this issue to make Himself clear. The subsequent debates in the early church as to the role of the Law (such as in Acts 15) clearly demonstrate further that the issues of how the Law was to be lived out among the disciples of Jesus had not been universally settled. Messiah knew this would be an area of confusion.
TWICE the word “destroy” is used (both times using the same Greek word mentioned in the previous paragraph) in the FIRST line. This would have only been done to assure His disciples that the “destruction” of the Law was in direct opposition with His role to “fulfill”. The word used for “fulfill” was πληρῶσαι (plerōsai) and means to “establish”, “confirm”, “deepen”, and/or “extend”; none of which suggest the absolution of the Law. So Messiah is not “fulfilling” the Law and prophets by replacing it. His words were carefully chosen here to clearly establish the longevity of the Law.
Perhaps the best clue to the meaning of “fulfill” in this parable is the parallelism that is evident in verse 19. Simply put, the design of the parable, and especially in verse 19, suggests that what Jesus meant by “fulfilling” in verse 17 was “doing.” “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the prophets”; that is, to act and teach as though the Scriptures were no longer an authority. So Messiah came not to “destroy”, but to “fulfill”; not to “neglect” the Scriptures, but to “obey” them. Thus, Jesus was asking His disciples to understand that one of His essential purposes for coming as the “promised” Messiah was to ILLUTSTRATE and EXECUTE the Law and the prophets both by His Words and, especially, by His actions. He came to explain how one could actually do the Law, and what the purpose of doing the Law was; to overcome sin. He came to execute the Law and the Prophets in their fullness in HUMAN FORM – not in a different way – but in a perfect and complete way.
So if the obvious parallels in verse 19 are given their due respect, we see that the design of this parable indicates that verses 18 and 19 act as a reflection for the terms “destroy” and “fulfill” that we see in verse 17. That would then further bolster the argument that the Greek word used for “fulfill” suggests that we must remain faithful to the Law. Thus, a more proper translation for the final paraphrase in verse 17 might be: “I did not come to destroy but to keep” (the Law).
The end point of Messiah’s affirmation of the present day validity of the Law and the prophets is foretold in reference to the passing away of heaven and earth. The only other use of this phrase is in Matthew 24:35 which seems to parallel the verse under question: “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words shall not pass away.” Thus, the expression “heaven and earth” is not quite equivalent to “forever” but could be understood as: “for long as the current world order exists” – until the earth is no more.
It may be argued by some that the statement by Jesus in Matthew 24:35 (that His words would never pass away) puts His teaching above the Law, or at least gives to His own words a timelessness which He does not ascribe to the Law. But while it is clear that the Messiah counted His teaching ever as much an authority as the Law, nowhere in Scripture are we led to believe that He considered His words as a replacement for the Law. He is the Word. He was there, in the beginning, to give the Law. What you suggest is that He who does not change, changes. But instead, His life, words, and teaching were necessary for a CORRECT understanding of the Law, and only through His revelation could the purpose of the Law and the prophets be realized.
At this point, the parallelism begins to become obvious. In the same way that the Law is fulfilled even to the smallest stroke, letter, and punctuation, so must the Law be followed, even to the least commandment, until heaven and earth pass away. It then becomes clear that “destroy” and “fulfill” have much to do with whether or not the Law is maintained in practice throughout our temporal existence. Therefore, “Fulfill” cannot possibly suggest a nullification of the “doing” because in this parallel, “destroying” is the opposite of “doing”. It then becomes unreasonable to suggest that Jesus Spoke about a “fulfilling” that envisions the “destruction” of the “doing.” The Ten Commandments are the Father’s summation of the Law and ought to be our focus in applying ourselves to keeping the Law – it is our guide for repentance.
boast
noun ˈbōst
: a statement in which you express too much pride in yourself or in something you have, have done, or are connected to in some way
: a reason to be proud : something impressive that someone or something has or has done
Scanner,
You must be terribly confused….not one mention of myself in this thread.
Again with the passive-aggressive, flippant responses.
Such a bitter arbiter you’ve made yourself to be.
As you were, Crowpie.
crowpie –scanner – walter
I am getting very upset,, I had a long comment and again a new screen flashed on my screen telling me to call a number or that I have a virus or what ever – these con men want to me to call a number????
Of course it wiped out what I had written, and this has happen 6 times or more.
This only happens on BIN
Does any one know how to block these morons??
Crowpie I will get back to you but I have no time let right now
this is very aggravating
Truthseeker
Try a different browser.
I can’t imagine a way to get rid of those entirely, so I’ve learned to write my responses in a word document. Just copy and paste your material from word on to here.
That way you never lose it.
You generally get out of it what you put into it, Scanner.
Why don’t you re-read just mine and your coms, and see who started the ugliness…..then really think about whether or not I was actually ever ugly at all.
Truthseeker,
I under stand, and just take your time.
We have no time limits on comments here in The Bins.
“Why don’t you re-read just mine and your coms, and see who started the ugliness”
With pleasure. Twist things however you wish to do but don’t think it’s going unnoticed.
This was my first response to you:
“Crowpie, what part of the law, specifically, is it that you don’t think we should abide by?”
…a question of curiosity. People don’t always simply reject the Law because of something they read in the New Testament. Many people don’t like a commandment, or don’t think we have a need/reason to follow one any more. If you would have answered my question, I thought we could break this debate down to other relevant specifics. But, instead of answering this question, you ignored it entirely. Then you had to throw in this bit of “ugliness” (if that’s how you want to go about over-animating this):
“And What Part of Pauls teachings in Romans (verses listed above) do you feel are lies?”
…portraying me to be someone who would ever call Paul’s writing a lie. You ignored my response and proceeded with this ‘snide’ remark. This remark was also ‘flippant’ – not showing a serious respectful attitude. ‘Snide’ and ‘flippant’ are the words I used. “Ugliness” is the word you used. I’ll stand by what I said.
Perhaps you may think I amplified it, but who started it, Crowpie?
Crow Pie
I am writing this off BIN — Wow I have no tolerance for stuff like that.
Any way, let me take this point by point as I may not actually know where you are coming from.
It appears you believe the Law is still here in some form?? But was “altered” some how by Christ. Bride – bridegroom point you made.
I have spent my business life using contracts to do business. American contract law is based upon the Covenants of God. I am not an expert but have drawn thousands.
There are at least two parties to a contract and in both the old and the new it is God and the children of Israel; this has never changed.
The “consideration” which is what Israel has to do or pay i.e. their contract duty is obey the 10 Commandments which include the statutes and Judgments, The Sacrificial law is not a part of the old contract.
On Gods side of the old contract His responsibility is what is called “the Promises” these promises can be found in Leviticus 26: 1 – 13.
When Christ came to affirm the new contract, according to Paul and everything I have read in God’s Word, the only changes were the promises of God.
Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established — upon better promises.
In other words nothing was changed but the promises. And to make it clearer in verse 10
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
The promises God is now making in the new covenant is to — change the people — not the Law. God is going to put in His people HIS Divine Nature which loves the Law.
The Holy Law is still under the Throne of God in the Arc of the Covenant and in the HOLY of HOLIES. The Commandments of God define His perfect Divine nature.
You are correct Christ did complete or fill up the Law as before it was physical and now Christ has raised the bar – it is now spiritual as well. Before if you actually killed someone that was murder: murder can now be done in the mind and that is now a sin.
The old contact was a physical contract for a physical people with a physical law and with physical promises – the new is a spiritual contract for a spiritual people with a spiritual law and spiritual promises.
The promises God the Father now offers: forgiveness of sin by the sacrifice of Christ, His Spirit in us and eternal life. Very short explanation.
Next reading between the lines it appears you believe God the Father was the one that wrote the commandments with His finger, that the Father was the God in the Old Testament.
Christ Himself states no one has seen the Father but Him, but Moses talked face to face.
John 6
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Jesus Christ is that Rock that stone that followed Israel for 40 years, Christ did the actual creating of ALL things and Christ talked with Abraham etc. Christ is the WORD or if you will the spokesmen for the family of God i.e. God the Father and God the Son —-and if we endure until the end we too will become immortal Sons of God. And with the same spirit body as Christ.
Philippians 3
21 Who shall change our vile body,— that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, —–according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
This is getting long, so at this point if I am making no sense I will get lost or if you want more clarification I can do that.. or if you want to just cuss me out ….
My question was merely a question of your not believing the scriptures as they are written.
Not a judgement of your character. Your putting words in my mouth.
Uh huh…and where did I put words in your mouth?
Speaking of not believing Scripture, CrowPie, you’re overlooking the fact that your position doesn’t stack up as it is written.
/alternative/2015/09/do-you-know-why-nothing-happened-in-september-3219458.html
A thread where you lost on the basis of four witnesses to one.
Your “witnesses” argument is null and void as that is a reference to an accusation of heresy under Sharia Law type theocratic government.
Your “four witness”‘ is a twisting of the testing of the scripture so that it will fit your narrative.
The problem is The New Testament contains All of the Ten Commandment, and removes any mention of public judgment, punishment or otherwise by fellow brothers and Sisters of sinners or otherwise.
As a matter of fact, if you will study the commands that Christ gave and take them to heart, you will realize that you will be far to busy minding your OWN hateful hearts, to be judging others.
Usually that is what bothers folks……It sounds an awful lot like busy work……
(it probly is)……and there are no verses where it says,…..”You can put someone to Death by stoning for something or other.” You’ve lost a lot of “Hate” power under a rightful dividing of The Word, haven’t you?
But then…..His Greatest Commandment is ……..Your supposed to know and practice that one….
But you can’t even discuss scripture lovingly, without undue accusation.
“Uh huh…and where did I put words in your mouth?”
“You ignored my response and proceeded with this ‘snide’ remark. This remark was also ‘flippant’ – not showing a serious respectful attitude. ‘Snide’ and ‘flippant’ are the words I used.”
I’m telling you I did not ignore your question. Period.
You, First insulted me….by insinuating that I would think that we should ignore one of the Ten Commandments. I simply ignored your childish display….primarily because You are still young and passionate and I am used to it from you and the rest of the group here. However, it does not excuse your behavior.
But in teaching you how it felt……I asked you a similar question…..you apparently don’t like being spoken to in such a manner, yet you feel it perfectly acceptable to Lord it over the person you are speaking with, especially if you disagree……Right?
We’ve previously discussed the relevance of multiple witnesses, CrowPie, where you focused on Deut 17:6 all the while failing to consider at least two other passages…
One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. Deut 19:15
But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ Matt 18:16
… and that’s Jesus quoting the OT commandment, innit?
Speaking of ignoring passages, and in particular partial references, did i recently see you calling someone a “Snake” for doing the same thing? And you want to task me for my accusative tone? Sister puh-lease.
Mayhem,
Yes, Mayhem…disciples and Apostles were sent in pairs to teach in order to back one another up….and to five affirmation to The Word.
But that is not an accurate testing of the Scripture. If it is…then I expect that you should be able to use that test with ‘EVERY” verse in the Bible…..and you can’t.
It is not possible……your standard is a non-starter. You have an agenda……and you work really hard to prove what you want the scriptures to say……rather than what they actually read.
One more thing Mayhem,
“Speaking of ignoring passages, and in particular partial references, did i recently see you calling someone a “Snake” for doing the same thing? And you want to task me for my accusative tone? Sister puh-lease.
Yes….and I have just submit my apologies for my error in judgment on that comment thread.
Anything else, dear?
I do what with Scripture? The hell you say! I quote Scripture, seek corroborating witness and present the evidence…
The Word says:- for “any crime or offense” and in “every matter”, not me.
… but you’re not the first to insist i’ve got an agenda, not to mention the implying that i twist the Word, so join the queue.
Well then….using your own standard of three or more witnesses…and your most recent statement…..I’d call that an admission of guilt.
Read it and weep.
“… but you’re not the first to insist i’ve got an agenda, not to mention the implying that i twist the Word, so join the queue.”
It’s the Biblical standard, CrowPie, not mine and yet it’s duly noted that you’d rather hurl empty accusations instead of defending your various positions…
“Such is life, that whatever is proposed, it is much easier to find reasons for rejecting than embracing.” Joseph Baretti
… and you’re welcome to call, what i wrote, whatever helps you deal with your conscience.
“It’s the Biblical standard, CrowPie, not mine”
Really? So you come on these threads….cut people to shreds with an inaccurate “four witnesses” false standard of verifying the worthiness or accuracy of a verse…..and you don’t even CLAIM IT AS YOUR OWN?
That’s right….you won’t be called a “Christian” either……..bet you just grit your teeth on that one……..
“duly noted that you’d rather hurl empty accusations instead of defending your various positions…”
As I recall……not so many months ago, you tried to brand me a MORMAN.
Demanded I post my personal churches email on the boards for all the world to see……I might as well have given out my address too.
““Such is life, that whatever is proposed, it is much easier to find reasons for rejecting than embracing.” Joseph Baretti”
Your mantra, I take it?
“… and you’re welcome to call, what i wrote, whatever helps you deal with your conscience.”
At least I have one, Mayhem. I apologize when it’s called for and appropriate.
Have you ever apologized for being such a consistently non-committed to the cause, “don’t call me a Christian”, blood thirsty pit-bull for a fight, and scriptures is as good a reason for you as any?
You argue that the Mosaic Law is no longer valid, or active, and that Jesus flouted and/or ignored them. I disagreed and quoted: Moses, Jesus, Paul & Matthew to make my case whereas you only had Paul, contradicting himself no less, for your support.
/alternative/2015/09/do-you-know-why-nothing-happened-in-september-3219458.html
We’ve already thrashed this out, CrowPie, as anyone can see from the link. Was i inaccurate, hmm, that’s for the reader to decide. As for the rest of your rant what does it have to do with the topic?
Be sure you read this post carefully now. It’s important.
Jer. 31:31-34 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke,……..
Is a broken Covenant Still in effect? When one side breaks its obligations…..is the other obligated to keep their end? Think on THAT as you read on…….
Here is the crux of the matter. Generally it is believed that the Old Law was created for the entire world to follow and benefit from…..but that is not the case. In order to know the end, you must know the beginning. See, after the Israelites broke the covenant…..they were not looked upon in the same light as before. God felt a little more inclusive and wanted to extend His promises to everyone, and not just the Israelites.
Gentiles were not Israelites. God spoke and said write down these words…..and gave the Ten Commandments. The rest of the law pertains to things such as how a man allow his side burns to grow and never ’round them off’ in order to distinguish them from the pagan priest that wore their hair in round, smooth ‘bowl cuts.’
It also prohibits tattoos (because of pagan ritual practices) and many other things. Tattoos were not prohibited in the New Testament….because at the time, tattoos were used to identify slaves. So it was no longer a form of worship of another god, just a matter of property identification.
There are a several examples of these kinds of changes….but, back to the point.
Generally it is believed that the Old Law was created for the entire world to follow and benefit from…..but that is not the case. The old covenant was only made with the Israelites in the time of the desert and was only meant to last for the until the Perfection of the Law was fulfilled.
The Old Testament law was given to a specific group of people, the Jews, and was never said to have been given to anyone else, Christians included.
Exodus 34:27 27 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”
The “children of Israel” were to “observe the sabbath throughout their generations” as a sign between God and the “children of Israel forever” See (Ex. 31:16-17).
God made the Mosaic covenant with the Jews of Moses’ day, not with others (Deuteronomy 5:1-3; Nehemiah 9:13-14)
Deuteronomy 5:1-3 1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear , O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep , and do them.
2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
For those who claim the Old Law ‘was from the beginning” the above is proof that it was not. It was made in the desert, with the ‘children of Israel’ to serve them during their stay and keep them in the way.
Nehemiah 9:13-14
13Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:
I believe that fully establishes the reason for the creation of the Old Law and who it was created for……now for the last question…..did it end?
Jer. 31:31-34 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 “They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
Jeremiah’s prophecy is seen in Hebrews 8
Hebrews 8
6* But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says, “BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH; 9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD. 10 “FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 11 “AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, ‘KNOW THE LORD,’ FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. 12 “FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.” 13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. The Old Testament law was nailed to the cross of Christ and thereby was brought to an end as a law to guide God’s people. Paul declared that Christians are “dead to the law by the body of Christ” and that this law was the law which said, “Thou shalt not covet”, i.e. the ten commandments law (Romans 7:4,7).
Elsewhere, Paul indicated that the veil which was “untaken away in the reading of the Old Testament . . . is done away in Christ,” the reason being it was “done away” (2 Corinthians 3:14,11). Christ “abolished in his flesh . . . the law of commandments by the cross” (Ephesains 2:15-16). In fact he was said to have removed the “handwriting of ordinances by nailing it to his cross”
Colossians 2:14 The result is, then, that the Old Testament as a law for God’s people was removed by the death of Christ. Christians, therefore, are not to observe the Old Testament as the law for God’s service today.
The Horse goes before the cart, CrowPie, in that the covenants were based (rather conditionally) upon the Law not the other way round. In both cases the Law existed prior to the Mosaic and Messianic Covenants – but more on that in a moment.
You say…
“The old covenant was only made with the Israelites in the time of the desert and was only meant to last for the until the Perfection of the Law was fulfilled.
… and as Truthseeker has been patiently explaining God’s covenant was “bettered” not changed, not abolished, not swapped or whatever other twist you want to put on it. Bettered by adding the Spiritual to the Physical.
The definition of sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4) and where there is no law there is no transgression (Romans 4:15). This is not my opinion this is what the Word of God says, as it is written.
Having established that…
1) – how then were the men of Sodom found exceedingly wicked and sinful against the most high? (Gen 13:3)
2) – how then was Abimilech accused of adultery, by God no less, thus breaking the 7th commandment? (Gen 20:3-9) Or why then did Joseph find it prudent to refuse his masters wife? (Gen 39:7-9)
3) – under what law did Adam & Eve break the 10th, 8th and 5th commandments? (Gen 3:6-17)
4) – under what law was Cain found guilty of breaking the 6th and 9th commandments? (Gen 4:9-12)
5) – what law did Moses have in mind when he tested Israel’s adherence to the Sabbath? (Exodus 16:4) The 4th commandment? (Gen 2:1-3) And how did God take it when they disobeyed? (Exodus 16:28)
6) – for what was Abraham blessed upon adhering to? (Gen 26:5)
… the answer, in every case, is the law of God which existed before the beginning of time, which endures to this day and the same law that continues with age abiding intent.
In summary: The Bible shows that the Ten Commandments were in effect and well known long before Moses or the Jews existed. They are the foundation of God’s laws which teach man how to love God (1st thru 4th) and how to love our fellow man (5th thru 10th). The Ten Commandments were only codified (written in stone as the basis of the Mosaic covenant) at Horeb. The two great commandments are the embodiment of the ten which are in turn representative of the 613.
ps – there’s more than just hair cuts to consider, CrowPie.
That quote does nothing to show where I was putting words in your mouth.
…full of excuses Crowpie.
Scanner,
So, you deny your insinuation that I thought we should ignore one of the Ten Commandments. ( I know you said old laws. But I’m not under the old laws. I follow the Ten commandents and the commands that Christ gave in the New Testament.)
I’ll re-post your insinuating question and then you take a look at some of the old laws below and answer that yourself.
Tell me Scanner…how long are your side burns?
Don’t let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)
Don’t have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19)
Don’t wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)
Don’t cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)
Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9)
If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10).
If a man sleeps with his father’s wife… both him and his father’s wife is to be put to death. (Leviticus 20:11)
If a man sleeps with his wife and her mother they are all to be burnt to death. (Leviticus 20:14)
If a man or woman has sex with an animal, both human and animal must be killed. (Leviticus 20:15-16).
If a man has sex with a woman on her period, they are both to be “cut off from their people” (Leviticus 20:18)
Psychics, wizards, and so on are to be stoned to death. (Leviticus 20:27)
If a priest’s daughter is a whore, she is to be burnt at the stake. (Leviticus 21:9)
People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)
How is your nose. Are you blind? Lame?
Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community. (Leviticus 24:14-16) Ever use any swear words?
Don’t let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)
Anyone who dreams or prophesizes anything that is against God, or anyone who tries to turn you from God, is to be put to death. (Deuteronomy 13:5)
If anyone, even your own family suggests worshipping another God, kill them. (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)
If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of it’s inhabitants… even the animals. (Deuteronomy 13:12-15)
One question here. Since I believe that I should follow only the New Commands…..are you planning to destroy my city and all it’s inhabitants?
Kill anyone with a different religion. (Deuteronomy 17:2-7)
ARE YOU REALLY an advocate of the OLD LAWS, Scanner? Are you following them to the Letter?
I should think that you would consider this before you deny this sweet little tidbit.
These laws were given to the lineage of Gods Chosen People.
Gentiles were not Gods Chosen People.
There was a Perfection made because the Chosen broke the covenant.
God (Christ) purchased us through the shedding of his blood.
By clinging to the old, and not accepting the New, you deny the Faith and Christ.
But then….none of you would be called a ‘Christian”….would you?
In fact…you have said that you detest the name.
This leads me to my next point. It is not correct to assume that the word Christian(s) is a man-made title, as opposed to a divinely revealed name, since there is plenty of evidence from the NT itself to prove that such is not the case.
For instance, the Lord Jesus anticipates a time in which his followers would carry his name, that kind acts would be shown to those who believe in him on account of their bearing the name of their Lord:
“For I tell you the truth, whoever gives you a cup of water because you bear Christ’s name will never lose his reward.” Mark 9:41 New English Bible (NET)
“For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward.” NASB
Not long after that, we see how God moved people to start identifying Christ’s followers as Christians:
“and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.” Acts 11:26
This basically fulfills the words of Christ. What makes this text rather significant is that it uses the passive voice, i.e. “The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch,” which may suggest that it was God who named them such. This position becomes all the more probable when we look at the immediate context which refers to prophets whom the Lord Jesus had raised up for the Churches.
Mayhem,
My reply to you concerning the Old Law will be found in the comment to Scanner, just above this one.
In light of John 8:7 – Jesus forgives the adulteress – your comments, regarding the law, make little sense. I can’t make heads-nor-tails of it, CrowPie, and have no idea why you would mention the death penalty, for transgressing the law, because i thought you knew about that particular requirement being fulfilled at Cavalry?
I especially don’t understand why you’d use Deuteronomy and presume you don’t know that it is the 2nd giving of the law which was written some 40 years after the Mosaic covenant was struck? Deuteronomy comes after the Ten Commandments just like the cart comes after the horse.
So: you said…
“By clinging to the old, and not accepting the New, you deny the Faith and Christ.”
… and where do you get the idea that it must be one or the other? I’m all for the covenant that i’m under, namely the Messianic, as summarized by the promise and the two great commandments. As explained by Jesus, the Christ, in person. But Faith without works is dead, with the Law being the expositor of what is pleasing to God, and this point was important enough for James to speak of it not once but thrice. (James 2:17-2:20-2:26) Didn’t you claim, earlier, that James 2:10 speaks against the Law?
Christ is a title, not a name, and interchangeable with “Messiah” but don’t get hung up on it because, in the book, there are something like 200 names and titles, for Jesus, that we can choose from. I have no objection to being called a Christian other than religion’s misuse of the word.
There is no distinction between Gentiles and God’s chosen people except Faith, CrowPie, the very same Faith that existed from the beginning. The Faith that was accounted for righteousness in Abraham (Gen 15:6).
The early law keepers were wrong to think that they were justified through observance, of the law, and they were corrected on that by Jesus. In the same way that the Pharisees required correcting, by Paul, regarding their presumption of separation between Jew and Gentile. There has only ever been one plan for Salvation, CrowPie, faith toward the coming Emmanuel or in the risen Jesus, depending on which period one had lived, for God does not change.
crowpie
What do you make of these Scriptures:
This is Zechariah 14
Zechariah is explaining what happens to the Gentiles that survived and live on into the rule of Jesus Christ on earth as KING of kings.
The gentiles nor anyone else for that matter have gone up year by year to keep any of God’s Feast –thus this is the 1000 year reign of Christ.
According to you, it seems, everything in the Old Testament is gone — but Zechariah is stating if the Gentiles refuse to come up to Jerusalem to keep the Feasts of Tabernacles they will be punished and punished severely. Egypt is gentile by the way.
God gave HIS Sabbath and HIS Feast Days to the 12 tribes and according to you and many others Christ trashed them AND NOW Jesus Christ is going to punish with plagues those that will not keep HIS Feasts???
I am interested in seeing how you will twist this into a knot. and you will
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that –is left — of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Mayhem,
“In light of John 8:7 – Jesus forgives the adulteress – your comments, regarding the law, make little sense.”
Please direct your attention to this verse.
James 2:10 – For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
You argue that we are still the old law. The verse above is very clear about how strictly it must be followed.
In previous conversations you have accused me of misinterpreting the scriptures concerning whether or not we could eat any food as long as it was blessed with prayer and thanksgiving.
I Timothy 4For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
Even Jesus said as much….
Matthew 15:11
“Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.”
But you said I was misinterpreting those verses.
You also argue that I was misinterpreting scripture when I posted these verses and stated that the old law was dead for Christians.
Romans 10:4 – For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Romans 6:14 – For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
All of these very straightforward verses, dealing directly with the subject matter……and you have the unmitigated gall to say that I am misinterpreting scriptures….then you try to say that because (in your words now)…..” death penalty, for transgressing the law, because i thought you knew about that particular requirement being fulfilled at Cavalry?”
Are you forgetting that, that does not absolve your not following the old law to the letter?
James 2:10 – For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
I have found no scripture that supports your opinion that Christs death on the Cross, or “In light of John 8:7 – Jesus forgives the adulteress –” that absolves you from keeping the following command……
If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of it’s inhabitants… even the animals. (Deuteronomy 13:12-15)
This command is in direct conflict with the forgiveness and love that Christ demands.This is the very reason that the old law is dead and the “handwriting of ordinances” were nailed to the Cross. Colossians 2:14
I’m not interested in opinion. I’m interested only in the fullness of The Word.
I do know this, you admit to trying to blend both the old Testament and the New Testament. You cannot serve both properly. You said…..
” and have no idea why you would mention the death penalty, for transgressing the law, ”
Because if your going to live by the old laws, you cannot be faithful to the New Testament laws. Works is commanded in the commands Jesus gave. Didn’t you know that? Its just that those works run counter to the Old Laws. Old laws demand death, New laws demand love and forgiveness…… even of your enemies. .
The old testament is oil…..the New Testament is water.
The Word has been described as a sword. It can be your ultimate protection.
Anyone familiar with weapons knows that you don’t handle them without respect, careful consideration and knowing your weapon very well. A sword can and will protect you. But mishandled it can bring upon mortal injury.
I have watched you debate on these boards for over two years now. I don’t get the feeling you do it out of a love for The Word. Rather, a love for the fight.
I think you missed the whole point of The Words Message.
How about you directing some attention to what i’ve already written, CrowPie, because you’re repeating yourself. Your points regarding the books of James, Romans and Deuteronomy have previously been answered at length. I’ll not be going round in circles with you, dear, if i want to dance i’ll let you know.
There’s a bunch of folk who think i’ve missed the message and i’m just in it for the kerfuffle, CrowPie, mostly religious folk who are more invested in their church than they are in the truth.
You cannot say I’ve misinterpreted the information above, that the old law is still in place, and then selectively pick and choose which laws you want to follow…….You can’t have it both ways.
The old law is either dead, or all of the laws are in effect. And since the two testaments have commands that are in opposition to one another….they cannot run consecutively.
You should rethink your studies.
My only loyalty is to Christ the Savior.
“You argue that we are still [under?] the old law.”
… no, CrowPie, i argue that the Law was not nailed to the cross, or otherwise abolished, and does indeed remain in full effect. The need for ceremonial ordinances was fulfilled, with Jesus sacrifice, as was the death penalty for sin…
“In previous conversations you have accused me of misinterpreting the scriptures concerning whether or not we could eat any food as long as it was blessed with prayer and thanksgiving.”
… i don’t recall we’ve debated this topic…
“Deuteronomy 13:12-15″
… that passage applies to the period immediately following the exodus and was conditional upon Israel living in the promised land (Deut-12:1). The Law wasn’t changed rather Israel broke the covenant, lost their inheritance, and were scattered ie no longer living there. So while there might well be some remnant residing in the promised land they too are under the better covenant, whereby the spiritual was added to the physical, but they no longer have the right to kick arse and take names…
“Colossians 2:14″
… Paul is talking about human traditions which deny that Jesus has paid the price, in full, for all sin. The debt was cancelled not the Law.
You’re cherry-picking/misunderstanding, CrowPie, not misinterpreting and the Law does indeed remain in full effect, all of it, with not one part of the old testament in opposition to the new…
“You should rethink your studies.”
… how do you like it when i try to tell you what to do? Hypocrite.
Mayhem,
“… no, CrowPie, i argue that the Law was not nailed to the cross, or otherwise abolished, and does indeed remain in full effect. ”
Then you ignore plain talk and straight forward scripture. You ignore the prophecy within Jeremiah and it’s confirmation in Hebrews chapter 8. You ignore Paul in Romans and his very plain speech.
Because of Christs death and resurrection we are under His Grace if we follow HIS commands in The New Testament.
You argue that:“Colossians 2:14″
… Paul is talking about human traditions which deny that Jesus has paid the price, in full, for all sin. The debt was cancelled not the Law.
I say not so. The debt was paid on conditions. Be sure to pay attention to verse six. Romans 7:4 – 7:6
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
You say you believe Christ to be the Son of God, and yet you refuse to hear the fullness of His Word and act wholly upon your faith in Him and His resurrection.
Your a doubting Thomas.
Bu
crowpie and mayhem
What was nailed to the stake was Jesus Christ – upon whom was laid all of our sins. Our sin was nailed to the stake not the Law. The written indictment of our sins was nailed with Christ.
Nailing the law to the stake only, not really, removes the law and not our sin.
Then how do you explain this verse?
Colossians 2:14
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
More than ONE thing can happen at a time…….
ordinance
noun or·di·nance ˈȯrd-nən(t)s, ˈȯr-də-nən(t)s
: a law or regulation made by a city or town government
1.a : an authoritative decree or direction : order
b : a law set forth by a governmental authority; specifically : a municipal regulation
2: something ordained or decreed by fate or a deity
3: a prescribed usage, practice, or ceremony
crowpie
the hand written document condemning each of us to death is nailed with Christ. Christ takes them with him…
What is Christ doing — he is paying our debt of death.
the word is not hand written “Law’, what is against us is the written document condemning us to death — that is what is nailed to the stake.
Think about it, how could an after the fact removal of law pay for our sins??
“Think about it, how could an after the fact removal of law pay for our sins??”
I never said that……
And your wrong. The definition of the word ordinances is, in fact, “a law or set of laws.”
Speaking plainly Paul believed in keeping the Law…
Acts 24:14 – … believing everything that is in accordance with the Law…
Acts 25:8 – … I have committed no offense either against the Law of the Jews or…
Romans 7:25 – … on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God,..
Romans 3:31 – Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be!
Romans 7:12 – So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
… thus, CrowPie, the only person doubting what the Word plainly says is you.
crowpie
Read 1a
it is the “written order” sentencing you to death, it is the written decree which orders your death for transgressing the Law.
Crowpie — use a little logic if you got a speeding ticket and a month later they removed the Law how does that help you?
Removing the Law does not remove your decree of death, even if you use the logic that the law was removed 2000 years ago,,, how does that help those the lived during the preceding 4000 years.
If Christ did not pay my personal sentence of death by His death then I am still “under” the sentence of death.
Nay! Paul loved the old law and was lamenting its passing.
Consider these verses:
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
What you, Mayhem, refuse to acknowledge is that Christ left His own Law. It is quite comprehensive in its short demands, and covers the Ten Commandments and a great deal more. But it demands a standard that is wholly different that the old testament law.
You cannot love and pray for your enemy and go kill all the inhabitants of a neighboring city.
You said Christ couldn’t/didn’t change the law concerning the food we are allowed to eat……yet you in your infinite wisdom can decide that because Jesus forgave the woman at the well that your not obligated to follow the old law that demands the deaths of whole cities?
You err, Mayhem. Because you refuse to hear and refuse to see.
crowpie
I am dead to the law — as far as the Law is concerned I HAVE ALREADY DIED I have paid my penalty –through the sacrifice of Christ.
Speaking of using ones eyes and ears, CrowPie, where did i refer to Jesus meeting the Samaritan women at the well?
Regardless; all of your points have been comprehensively addressed (in this thread or the one i linked to) and i’ll not be going around in circles with you.
“Nay! Paul loved the old law and was lamenting its passing.
Interestingly, CrowPie, you rely on what you think Paul meant whereas i quote what he actually said and what the supporting passages have to say. Hmm!
crowpie
Just read this scripture you posted to me,
7 “What shall we say then?— Is the law sin? — God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.”
Is the Law SIN???– God for bid! — The Law is not sin– period!!
I could not have known what lust was until the law explained what coveting was.
The Law does not condemn us, God condemns us to death for transgressing His HOLY law. The only job of the 10 Commandments is to simply DEFINE what SIN “IS”.
If Christ actually ended the Law — there would be nothing that defined what sin is.. 1 John 3:4 For sin it the transgression of the Law.
Matthew 7
12 “Therefore all things whatsoever ye would — that men should do to you, — do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. “
Jesus Christ came teaching from the LAW and the PROPHETS i.e. what we call the OLD Testament: The Law of Moses and the Prophets of God.
The ‘new commandment’ Christ taught was “do unto others as you would have them to do to you” —
In verse 12 Christ proclaims that is the exact teaching found in the OLD Testament and yet so called Christians just pitch the LAW and the PROPHETS aside as old and worthless.
God does not change the LAW stands
Truthseeker,
You said, “the hand written document condemning each of us to death is nailed with Christ. Christ takes them with him…”
And my answer is…..there is only ONE hand written document containing that condemnation, the old law. And in order for Christ to take upon our sins and Redeem us, that document (the old law) was nailed to the Cross.
Actually, the more you speak the more I realize that you and I agree….it’s just that you don’t realize it yet. Maybe you should read this thread from top to bottom and read my comments very closely. We are not that far off. But the difference in the end is tremendous because of the attitudes that we either keep from the old law, and cannot take better from the New Testament.
Or, we shed the old attitudes from the old law and follow Christs commands (they were posted on this thread by me and then repeated.) As you say, they cover the Ten commandments and a great deal more.
Mayhem,
You said above and I quote, “John 8:7 – Jesus forgives the adulteress ” The woman at the well was an adulteress, also. Forgive my faulty phrasing. I ‘m not perfect, I make mistakes, often. I will also admit my mistakes. Will you?
(Lawyers and businessmen NEVER admit mistakes, do they?)
You also said this, ” you rely on what you think Paul meant whereas i quote what he actually said and what the supporting passages have to say. Hmm!”
That’s hilarious. I have posted Romans all over this thread. (And supporting chapter and verse with my statements).
The thing about you Mayhem, is the more cornered you are, the less you say and the more “nit picking” you become.
Can you provide book, chapter and verse for this claim…
“Nay! Paul loved the old law and was lamenting its passing.”
… or is this another of your mistakes?
Not content to be telling me what i should be doing you’re now going to read me my pedigree! However i’m not being personal, CrowPie, you are so who is really nitpicking?
“Can you provide book, chapter and verse for this claim…
“Nay! Paul loved the old law and was lamenting its passing.”
… or is this another of your mistakes?”
Read the entire chapter of Romans 7. If you understand the Kings English it will be easy enough to understand that Paul is mourning.
Another one of my mistakes? That’s right….we should just rename you “Mayhem the Perfect.”
I couldn’t find where Paul lamented, or mourned, the passing of the law-of-God but did notice where he said he delighted in it (Romans 7:22). Would you be so kind as to point me to what i must have missed?
Perhaps it’s one of those Biblical concepts where one must read between the lines and pay no mind to Scripture appearing contradictory. You know; like how some people claim that God commanded “Thou shalt not judge.”
I’m neither a lawyer nor businessman, CrowPie, and have never claimed to be perfect but you may call me whatever spins your wheels.
Mayhem,
” I couldn’t find where Paul lamented, or mourned, the passing of the law-of-God”
Of course you couldn’t, you weren’t looking for it, and wouldn’t admit it if Paul himself stood up in your soup.
consider Romans 7:18-19 and 23-24
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
and
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
“o wretched man that I am” I’m sorry Mayhem, these verses stand out in this chapter devoted to the death of the old law……the man was suffering. But, he was grateful to Christ for his redemption and said so.
“I’m neither a lawyer nor businessman, CrowPie, and have never claimed to be perfect ”
You don’t have to claim to be perfect in order to behave as if you are without blemish, or superior to those around you.
Ah, i see, so it’s done by cherry picking Scripture where you glibly ignore Romans 7:20, 21 & 22 especially verse 22.
You said…
“…we should just rename you “Mayhem the Perfect.”
… and who is “we”?
Who “cherry picked?”
I pointed out the exacted verses you refused to acknowledge, then further acknowledged the rest of the verses by saying that Paul was grateful to Christ for His redemption.
“We” are those of us that you keep referring too, that “line” you keep telling me to “get in” that accuses you of twisting The Word, fighting simply for the fun of the fight and refusing to admit that you are WRONG.
You say i’m wrong but Paul said – “Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.” Romans 3:31
You say i’m wrong but Jesus said – “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.” Matthew 5:17
You say i’m wrong but James said – “If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.” James 2:8,9
Paul reminds us that the Law is written in our hearts (Rom 2:15). What Law? The Law and Prophets that were read out loud at Antioch (Acts 13:15) the Law of Moses that Paul used to persuade folk concerning Jesus (Acts 28:23) the Law that was codified from 613 to 10 which was, in turn, summarized in the 2 great commandments with not one jot or tittle passing from it (Matthew 5:18). The Law of God.
Oh, i see, “we” as in…
Pharisees.org, CTrent33, MikeSavage, Louis, HumanBeing, Pix, plsnogod, Meidan, NM156, et al.
… that is who you align yourself with.
Hmm!
The old Law is now for our education the next verse plainly says so.
Romans 3:20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Consider the words of the next verse carefully…..
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
You earn enemies, Mayhem.
I happened to have liked CTrent33 and HumanBeing regardless of their personal beliefs.
crowpie
No we do not agree, Please read slowly
The Word of God is logical 2 + 2 always = 4.
If I have sinned by transgressing the 10 Commandments which I have—
The commandment do not sentence me to death, the law only show what I have transgressed. They define sin
God orders my death for breaking His Law and issues a written order.
Christ came and took the God written order that demands I be put to death and —- he changed places with me.
He was put to death instead of ME.
Removing the law in no way can pay my penalty –only my death or a death of someone worth much more I – can satisfy the written order..
adding law or removing law changing law or what ever has nothing to do with the matter.
The problem is he who sins must die — only the maker of all mankind can be enough to pay the penalty for every man.
All have sinned — all must die — either we each die for our own sins or our maker must die.
the Law is in place -taking it away does not pay my penalty.
Truthseeker,
You said, “All have sinned — all must die — either we each die for our own sins or our maker must die.
the Law is in place -taking it away does not pay my penalty.”
I agree. The difference is….I follow the commandments that Christ left and since He is God, and was the one who also handed the Commandments to Moses, is the God whom the Israelites broke the coventent with….and who spoke in the prophecy of Jeremiah thar was fulfilled in Hebrews, I have Faith that,……that is what He wants of me…..I am to learn from the old what sin is……and follow the New.
Yes, yes, you have already covered Romans 3, CrowPie, and you know how i feel about going round in circles. I’ll be no part of it, in case you’ve forgotten, except to say that your point better argues for Salvation being unattainable through adherence to the Law which isn’t in contention.
Are you surprised that i earn enemies? You shouldn’t be because the Bible teaches that Jesus was hated first (John 15:18) and that believers will be hated for His sake (Matt 10:22) particularly because, while they have been given God’s word (John 17:8), they are to be no part of this world (John 15:19).
You have said…
” I don’t get the feeling you do it out of a love for The Word. Rather, a love for the fight [and that i'm] fighting simply for the fun of the fight [a] blood thirsty pit-bull for a fight, and scriptures is as good a reason for you as any”
… and in another thread you are seen to be throwing barbs yourself…
/self-sufficiency/2015/10/red-alert-yellowstone-supervolcano-getting-ready-to-blow-full-photo-video-2496256.html
… making you a two-faced “tosser” by the looks of things. Hmm!
Are you seriously going to sit there and tell me that you never heard of midget tossing?
Oh yeah; i obviously misread that, my bad, just as well i only quoted you so as not to overly offend.
I’ve learned a great deal from our conversation, CrowPie, but it now must end and i’ll see around the traps.
Be well.
It happens. No biggie.
You push me to sharpen my skills, too. I’m grateful.
crowpie
Yes now I see the difference!
The God I worship does not change He is the same yesterday today and tomorrow — and Yes Jesus Christ is the one who wrote the Law with His finger,
you follow a god that changes his mind –
your god says;
yesterday if you transgressed my 10 commandments I will put you to death –
But today I have replaced those laws with a bunch of statements scatter throughout 4 books and now I will put you to death for transgressing those statements.
crow when you told us you think god is a trinity I realized you follow some catholic doctrine — catholic doctrine is not logical it is a mystery — the God I follow created Logic for me to use in PROVING ALL THINGS.
Your thinking is not logical,
Very helpful thank you and I upvoted
You folks arguing over bible versus is the very reason why this planet is being flushed down the toilet of state sponsored slavery.
You folks is the reason?
Learn how to write in English. Then you’ll be a more adequate scoffer.
Oh, silly me, here i was thinking that the world’s problems were down to American/UN Hegemony, Banker Feudalism, Greed, Jealousy and Corruption.
Regardless, 1-eye, it must be wonderfully comforting being able to blame everyone except yourself.
Destined2b
Are you stating I can now go out and rape, murder, lie and steal???
“they that feebly attempt to follow the old law are not partakers of the promise of Christ.”
Really??? If I feebly attempt to NOT fornicate or lie I am not partakers of the promise of Christ???
DESTINEDTOBE YOU ARE A LIAR AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN YOU.
Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (I HAVE COME TO FILL IT UP the LAW)— it is now both physical and spiritual.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
PLEASE READ VERSE 19
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
YOU TEACH AGAINST THE COMMANDMENTS — YOU ARE THE LEAST IN THE KINGDOM SO STATES JESUS CHRIST.
Yeah, DestinedToBeRevealed, I don’t remember Father Almighty in the past, commanding anyone to love each other as He Loves Them with Divine Love He being eternal Holy Spirit.
Sounds very new to me, comparatively.
“This is My commandment, that you love one another as I loved you.”
John 15:12
clueless and ignorant when it comes to prophecy. Zionism is defined as a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. is definiation then G-d is a zionist….
“G-d is a Zionist”
“G-d”… a benighted practice by ignorant men calling themselves Jews.
ISRAEL is a title given to JACOB. Israel is not a title given to Judah, nor is it a title given to Esau. You confuse the modern state of Israel with the title given to JACOB. The identity of Jacob (Israel) has been lost and scattered. Moreover, the identity of Jacob has been stolen.
Edom, claiming to be from the Tribe of Judah, has not been lost and scattered. It’s no secret that those currently controlling Israel are Edom. They are not Jacob, so they cannot be Israel. Edom aims to retake the blessing that Jacob stole. Edom is currently IMPERSONATING Israel, lying and claiming a title that does not belong to them.
“G-d is a Zionist”
If so, then how do you justify the Zionist movement in light of Isaiah?
Isaiah 14:
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I WILL BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH.
Based on what fact do you make the statement ” It’s no secret that those currently controlling Israel are Edom”?
Israel is a title given to Jacob by G-d, the Patriarch of the 12 tribes which constitutes Israel, of which Judah was part of. The names Land of Israel and Children of Israel have historically been used to refer to the biblical Kingdom of Israel and the entire Jewish nation respectively. The name “Israel” in these phrases refers to the patriarch Jacob – go do your research…
So exactly where is Jacob now? How can a blessing be stolen from an entity of group of people you claim is “lost” or “scattered”? Why dont they be more vocal and come forward to lay claim of their blessing?
I dont see any correlation at all between Isaiah 14 and zionism or Israel for that matter and the scripture you quoted out of context has nothing to do with that..
“Based on what fact do you make the statement ” It’s no secret that those currently controlling Israel are Edom”?”
History books. You know, those piles of pages people should read when trying to verify the claims of authority by men.
Why is it that names like Rothschild are associated with the Tribe of Judah when, in fact, they come from Esau.
Do you know who the historians say the Pharisee of the New Testament were? (Hint: they are followers of the Talmud)
In the 6-700s, the Khazarian dynasty brought in Babylonian mystics and CONVERTED the inhabitants to Judaism by declaring all of its subjects to be Jewish. Babylonian mystics were then brought in who began to merge their Talmudist and Kabbalistic teachings with the central tenants of traditional (formerly) Judaism.
Historians have also used the Bible, and other sources such as the movement of language, to trace the movement of Esau to this Khazarian Empire. From there, it’s much easier to find out where they are now. Even the Jewish Encyclopedia records their presence in Israel today. Read a book, but do it without kneeling down to the men you’ve placed on a pedestal.
“Israel is a title given to Jacob by G-d”
Yes. That’s what I said. Thanks for repeating it. But you can say God. In fact, you are supposed to pray in His Name. Where do you refer to Scripture to support such a practice?
“the Patriarch of the 12 tribes which constitutes Israel”
Yes. Israel was a title given to Jacob. But where in the Bible does it say that Israel was a title given to all twelve tribes? One verse please.
Do you recall how Jacob received the title of Israel? Do you recall how he received this blessing? Jacob TRICKED Isaac, who could not see, and STOLE the title from his OLDER brother Esau – to whom the title was ‘supposed’ to go to. What you see in Israel is payback. Esau is aware. Jacob is blind. Esau has identified Jacob but, for the most part, Jacob has not identified Esau. Esau plans to retake the blessing that Jacob stole. Esau plans to exterminate Jacob. I suggest a re-read of Ezekiel and Malachi be in order for you.
“of which Judah was part of.”
I’m not talking about Judah. I’m talking about Esau. Anyone who claims to be from the Tribe of Judah either lies or guesses, but in this case lies and guesses might as well be one in the same.
“The names Land of Israel”
You mean the Land of Judah? There’s no such thing as the Land of Israel, outside of what Edomite men like Rothschild created through the Balfour Declaration.
“and Children of Israel have historically been used to refer to the biblical Kingdom of Israel and the entire Jewish nation respectively.”
That doesn’t make such a thing true. If there were such a thing as the “Children of Israel”, then where does the Bible suggest that they have anything to do with the modern “Jewish nation”?
“The name “Israel” in these phrases refers to the patriarch Jacob – go do your research…”
When have I even remotely suggested otherwise? You’re the only one arguing that Israel belongs to Judah, whom you’ve wrongly identified. Once you’re done talking in circles you can try doing some research too.
“So exactly where is Jacob now?”
What is it about being lost that you do not understand? If I say they are lost, what makes you think I know where Jacob is now? We know for certain that “blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in”. They have been scattered across the four corners of the earth and, until Messiah returns, the fullness of the Gentiles has not come. Messiah gathers Israel. The Rothschild’s do not gather Israel. (Please don’t argue that the Most High worked through the Rothschild’s like He did through Moses during the Exodus as I’ve seen others with your views have)
“How can a blessing be stolen from an entity of group of people you claim is “lost” or “scattered”?”
Just like it was stolen by Jacob in Genesis. Clearly you haven’t studied the Bible very well, but have you even read it? Go back through Ezekiel 35-39 because it makes Esau’s role in modern Canaan quite clear.
“Why dont they be more vocal and come forward to lay claim of their blessing?”
Must I define “lost” or “blindness” for you? Do you imagine the Tribe of Jacob to be every man on earth with a seeing disorder? Jacob, and Israel, is ignorant of their identity. Israel is not a strip of land. Israel is a title that belongs to the blinded Jacob, as I’ve said and as you’ve said. Esau is impersonating Jacob. Esau is impersonating Israel. They intend to trick the blinded Isaac to steal back the birthright. They are stealing the title. Do you imagine God to be just? There is a reason why it’s called the Time of Jacob’s Trouble, and you’re looking right at it all while being willingly ignorant. You’re being tricked, as Isaac was tricked. You’re giving Esau Jacob’s blessing. Think about it…
“I dont see any correlation at all between Isaiah 14 and zionism or Israel”
It’s because you can’t see the forest for the trees. The feud began with Cain and Abel. The feud continued through Jacob and Esau. And the feud continues to this day through the blinded Jacob (Daughters of Zion) and the aware Esau (Daughters of Edom). As it was in the beginning, so shall it be in the end.
Malach 1:
1 The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi.
2 I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob,
3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever.
History books? Really? Never came across this in any history lesson and I have done a lot of historical biblical studies. Do you have the source and page number to share please? Secondly I find it strange that the source of your information can miraculously trace Edom to Rothschilds, yet they are unable to trace the “lost” or “scattered tribes of Jacob. Sounds like you are getting your information more from a fantasy novel than a legitimate historical source….
Here is another flaw in your argument, you state that the Pharisee of new testament where followers of Talmud, yet the Talmud which has two components: the Mishnah, and the Gemara where only introduced between 200CE to 500 CE following destruction of the Temple, well after the reference in the New Testament. So how does that work then?
“Yes. Israel was a title given to Jacob. But where in the Bible does it say that Israel was a title given to all twelve tribes? One verse please.” – so when G-d refers to Israel as the apple of his eye, what did he mean by that then? Ig you read scripture and actually understood it, you would see G-ds love for a nation known as Israel, not just one man….btw Genesis 49:28 “28 All these are the twelve tribes of Isra’el, and this is how their father spoke to them and blessed them, giving each his own individual blessing”
Not going to even bother responding to the rest, you are so out of touch with reality. Please provide references for your source of information….all these cast historical accounts and documented evidence you state exists to back-up this load of BS.
“History books? Really? Never came across this in any history lesson and I have done a lot of historical biblical studies. Do you have the source and page number to share please?”
Use your search engine, lazy. You can plug every part of what I’ve said in to any search engine to verify my claims but you haven’t done so. You know what that says about you? That says you’re a lazy thinker who would prefer to ostrich-dance your face straight in the boggy sand upon hearing something you don’t like.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_of_Jewish_origins
Even Wikipedia has a plethora of links to support these claims. You have the right to prove me wrong. Man up and do it.
“Secondly I find it strange that the source of your information can miraculously trace Edom to Rothschilds, yet they are unable to trace the “lost” or “scattered tribes of Jacob.”
Even the Bible tells us the identity of Esau, and traces their lineage. The Bible also tells us that Israel (Jacob) has been blinded – scattered amongst the four corners of the earth and LOST. The Bible IS my source. Put up or shut up. Use the Bible to prove me wrong instead of dancing around the subject.
“ Sounds like you are getting your information more from a fantasy novel than a legitimate historical source….”
I’ve explained my source. It’s the Bible. What’s yours?
“Here is another flaw in your argument, you state that the Pharisee of new testament where followers of Talmud, yet the Talmud which has two components: the Mishnah, and the Gemara where only introduced between 200CE to 500 CE following destruction of the Temple, well after the reference in the New Testament. So how does that work then?”
Please. I’ll entertain your lazy thinking only so far. The groups that compiled the Talmud existed before the Talmud. A group of people didn’t spontaneously combust into existence with their book in hand. Do you know anything about the Qumram library? If you did, then you’d know that many of the central arguments found in the Talmud (Sadducean law for example) were found amongst the scrolls of the cave. Dig deeper and you will find more support to my claims but, you’ve clearly got a long way to go before you get there and only a child would expect for me to walk you through this step by step. Sit back, crack those sausage fingers one by one, and plug some letters in to the search engine of your choice. You’ve had ample opportunity to disprove anything I’ve said but instead you’ve chosen to dismiss my claims without providing evidence of your own. All you’re doing is asking more questions. Lazy and Hypocritic. That’s what Judaism fosters to those who kneel before it blindly.
“so when G-d refers to Israel as the apple of his eye, what did he mean by that then?”
More questions. Lazy questions. Must you ask this? Are you not able to put together what I’ve said to answer this for yourself? Dancing for days.
“you would see G-ds love for a nation known as Israel, not just one man…”
Where does the Bible say that, if you know it so well? Where does it say Israel is a “Jewish” nation? On what does Judaism have anything to do with the Land of Canaan? I’ve yet to see you most a single verse despite my request, lazy.
Ezekiel 36:
1 Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord:
2 Thus saith the Lord God; Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession:
3 Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people:
4 Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord God; Thus saith the Lord God to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about;
5 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, WHICH HAVE APPOINTED MY LAND IN TO THEIR POSSESSION with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, TO CAST IT OUT FOR A PREY.
******
17 Son of man, WHEN THE **HOUSE** OF ISRAEL DWELT IN THEIR OWN LAND, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
19 And I SCATTERED THEM among the heathen, and they were DISPERSED through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the Lord, and are gone forth out of his land.
21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the HOUSE of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
22 Therefore say unto the HOUSE of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O HOUSE of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen (like G-d), which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
“btw Genesis 49:28 “28 All these are the twelve tribes of Isra’el, and this is how their father spoke to them and blessed them, giving each his own individual blessing”
Wonderful. Now you’re using your head. Except you forgot to keep reading about how Israel split into two kingdoms; the Kingdom of Israel in the north and the Kingdom of Judah in the south. Cain and Abel…the fued continued. Why do you think it is that the New Testament goes out of the way to mention both Israel and Judah in the SAME verses, clearly differentiating the two?
Scanner
I have a question:
below is from Obadiah and Obadiah is prophesying about Edom/Esau.
In these 3 scriptures God is telling Esau, Jacob’s brother, he will be cut off — a nation no more. Also read Amos
I looked up the Ottomen empire – it is Turkey.
If you will look at verse 9 God call Esau “mighty men OTeman”
O-T- Men = Ottomen.
8 Shall I not in that day, saith the LORD, even destroy the wise men out of Edom, and understanding out of the mount of Esau?
9 And thy mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed, to the end that every one of the mount of Esau may be cut off by slaughter.
10 For thy violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever.
In my studies I have found when the remnant of the 12 tribes of Israel come by the 2nd exodus to receive the Promised Land they will travel through Turkey and will kill all the men. Edom will be a nation no longer.
The reason they will be destroyed is during the Tribulation they catch and turn over to the Beast all the Jews escaping from the nation of Israel.
I don’t see a question from your post so I’m not sure what you’re looking for me to respond to.
Yes.. Turkey is the Ottoman empire, just as it was the Byzantine empire before it. But Esau is not isolated to Turkey. Also remember, that the land being referred to in your post was much larger than it is today (same goes for the Land of Canaan/modern Israel)
Ezekiel 36
5 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea [Edom/Esau], WHICH HAVE APPOINTED MY LAND IN TO THEIR POSSESSION with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, TO CAST IT OUT FOR A PREY.
The progression of Esau can be traced to Khazaria as well. Linguistics and DNA tests will also show the migration in to modern day Israel.
Are you trying to argue that modern day Turkey is supposed to be a threat? Not in this century, brother.
spanner
Sorry it is not really a question but what I was trying to say is in the time of the end Turkey is Edom and will be destroyed by the returning 12 tribes.
When the King of the North and the King of the South come up Turkey will not be in either but will work with both. and will help the Beast take Jews into captivity.
Because Esau turned upon his brother God will destroy them as a people — that is the point of Amos and Obidiah.
Do I believe modern day Israel is made up of many people Yes but in the main they are of the tribe of Judah, Levi and Benjamin.
Truthseeker,
If you think Teman has anything to do with Turkey, you need to consult your Bible maps.
Depending upon which sources you consult, Teman was either in modern day Jordan or Saudi Arabia. That’s nowhere near Turkey.
And O Teman = Ottoman?
I hope you stretched out your muscles before making that leap!!!
Truthseeker wrote:
“Because Esau turned upon his brother God will destroy them as a people — that is the point of Amos and Obidiah.”
Esau the man made amends with Jacob the man.
Esau the people IS TURNED against Jacob the people. (You better bet this long-running Biblical feud between brothers is still in full-fledged, critical-mass, near meltdown, today. Because it is. This fraternal feud is one of the main points of Scripture. Don’t turn a blind eye to it just because it’s never been taught to you by your leaders and elders. This is the kind of thing that only becomes crystal clear the closer we get to the end of the age.)
Jacob pretended to be Esau.
Now Esau is pretending to be Jacob.
Jacob took advantage of his father’s blindness.
Now, blindness has (in part) happened to Jacob.
Jacob forgot who he is.
Esau never forgot.
Walter
I am just point out it seems like there is a connection with the name O T emen and Ottoman they are very close.
I do believe that Turkey is Esau — all of the nations in the Middle east have been moved all over — just look where the nations of the House of Israel are now.
And I also firmly believe modern day Germany is Assyria, and very soon Germany will rise up and control all of Europe and will again cause world war 3.
Germany is at this moment rearming big time and they make really great weapons. Israel buy their subs.
“Use your search engine, lazy.” **chuckle, chuckle – using my search engine returns a load of conspiracy theory websites. You quoted over and over historical documents, Jewish history, I asked for your references and page numbers of the source of your information from these “credible sources” and all you can quote is Wikipedia. **Wow – like that is a really credible, accurate and vetted source of information. Do you actually read the BS that you write? Or are you that stupid and ignorant to remember what you stated?
The fact is you cannot provide me with reference to the crap you spewing out (despite me requesting this a couple of times) because all they are is fantasy tales and nothing factual and historically documented. That is why you refer me to Wikipedia. The mere fact that you use this as a source of information clearly demonstrates one who has thier own head up thier arse.
“Even the Bible tells us the identity of Esau, and traces their lineage….” Passages and verses that would indicate that present day Israel is NOT as G-d intended it to be and that would fit in with your replacement theology that they are trying to steal Jacobs blessing by been an apostate Israel (or Edom as you put it). The bible also says that G-d will gather them from the ends of the earth and restore Jerusalem which flies against your claims.
“Please. I’ll entertain your lazy thinking only so far. The groups that compiled the Talmud existed before the Talmud.” Allow me to me to entertaining your lack of understanding…”you said that “Pharisee of new testament where followers of Talmud” and then tried to explain that away. The fact is this. The Talmud was not used to the extent it is today back when the new testament was written. It was only used more practically after the destruction of the temple (the reason for adopting as part of everyday life) and after it was compiled between 200CE to 500 CE, way after the dates you reference in your comments. Are you deluded or what?
“All you’re doing is asking more questions” I really don’t think you are very smart either, that is clear to me. I am asking questions to confirm what you have stated, to refer to the source of your information. The wild comments you have made by referring to historical documents which you then retracted and said “read Wikipedia”…. Again I am going to ask if your warped and twisted mind actually understands what you have written, let alone have you read what you have written?
What I read is words of a fool. Unable to back-up what they are claiming with legitimate historical documents. In their plethora of verbal diahorrea, they claim it is historically documented, but when challenged on that – their answer is to “refer to Wikipedia” and accuse the other party of been lazy. I don’t buy and waste my time on conspiracy tales and site, if you have the historical references, books/authors from legitimate sources, THEN EITHER PUT UP OR SUT UP! You make broad references to the Qumram library. Been a library, what part do you reference and what point are you trying to make with reference to this and the Talmud?
Where does the Bible say that, if you know it so well? Where does it say Israel is a “Jewish” nation? I think you are deluded – where did I state that Israel is soley a jewish nation or Judaism having anything to do with the land of Canaan? And on what basis and context are you asking this question? “On what does Judaism have anything to do with the Land of Canaan”?
You quote Ezekial 36 – what point are you trying to make? This has to do with Israel (the northern kingdom) after they were expelled from the land and the surrounding nations like Edom where rejoicing in their demise. You are off-track and misguided there. Ezekial 36 has nothing to do with present day Israel…..that is exactly why the next chapter Ezekiel 37:1-14 speaks about the restoration of the nation of Israel…
“btw Genesis 49:28 “28 All these are the twelve tribes of Isra’el, and this is how their father spoke to them and blessed them, giving each his own individual blessing” – shows me you are pretty clueless, since you said and I quote “But where in the Bible does it say that Israel was a title given to all twelve tribes? One verse please.”
“Cain and Abel…the fued continued” – so where is this stated in the bible? On what basis are you making this claim in relation to modern day Israel…
“Why do you think it is that the New Testament goes out of the way to mention both Israel and Judah in the SAME verses, clearly differentiating the two?” – versus please. However I will tell you why I think it may (not that I believe the NT is a 100% legitimate source of information (due to miss interpretations and lack of source documents when compared to the OT and can only be interpreted in light of understanding of the OT) Israel refer to all believers in G-d which includes gentile believers, a composite nation. Judah refers to the native born Jewish segment within Israel
Next time to present a legitmate and respectable point of view, provide the sources of your information when requested and don’t ridicule, especially when you lay claim to “historical documents” and make statements you claim are based on those documents. Your whole argument is a fools argument especially when challenged on the points and then refer to “Wikipedia”
Pardon the interruption, spartan, but the Wiki page wasn’t claimed to be the authority rather its 105 sources were.
Work your way through some of those sources, lazy, then come back and have another go at dismissing Scanner Darko’s point.
Mayhem, what this pagan (Scanner Darko) stated was:
1) Use your search engine, lazy. You can plug every part of what I’ve said in to any search engine to verify my claims but you haven’t done so
- Was my first action before I even asked for “its” references and all that came up was some conspiracy websites. Nothing legitimate.
2) “it” then referenced https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_of_Jewish_origins – claiming that there is a plethora of links to support these claims. Well there is a plethora of links, but how many of the 105 are legitimate sources and actually do support “its” statements, which is the reason I asked for the references “it” uses to substantiate “its” position.
This type of reply is pointless and a fools reply with no basis in the first place. That is like debating live on air and your opponent states “go down to your local library and look it up” Sorry I don’t buy that, that is a lazy response if there be any. So let me be clear, what links in the Wikipedia article is “it” referencing? What books, what pages to substantiate the claims “it” is making……
Asking that you use up a few left clicks is like demanding you leave where you are and to go down to your local library? Fair enough, spartan, but that will be the end of our conversation except to say – Scanner Darko definitely presents his case in a cut-n-paste search engine friendly manner despite your contention to the contrary.
“using my search engine returns a load of conspiracy theory websites.”
Pssst..your hypocrisy is showing. Have you forgotten where you are?
Try again, lazy.
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan….says Revelation 2:9 (which has not been taken out of context)
so a Jewish Messiah named “jesus” is going to return to the earth to take his bride, the so called church, a gentile pagan institution which rejects G-ds Torah, eats pork, includes idolatory in thier practices,fornicates ect? He is going to take this as his bride?
the scripture you refer to Revelation 2:9 if you actually understood it is where John is speaking about Gentiles who call themselves Jews but aren’t, on the contrary they are the synagogue of satan – (the gentile judaizers in galations)
What a lazy response.
“so a Jewish Messiah named “jesus” is going to return to the earth to take his bride, the so called church, a gentile pagan institution which rejects G-ds Torah, eats pork, includes idolatory in thier practices,fornicates ect? He is going to take this as his bride?’
What on earth are you going on about? What church did I ever refer to?
And by “Jewish Messiah”, I hope you are referring to bloodlines. Messiah was Jewish only insomuch that he came from the Tribe of Judah. If you were referring to Jewish law (Talmud) and customs (Kabbalah), then no, Messiah was most certainly not Jewish. Don’t pretend like the Jewish religion exists without blasphemy. The number of abominations spewing from the bowels of their laws and customs is too numerous to count (example: the ridiculous belief that you are showing “G-d” respect by refusing to acknowledge Him). The Jewish faith HATES Messiah. Are you intentionally being obtuse?
“the scripture you refer to Revelation 2:9 if you actually understood it is where John is speaking about Gentiles who call themselves Jews but aren’t, on the contrary they are the synagogue of satan – (the gentile judaizers in galations)”
“Gentiles who call themselves Jews”. That’s not what the Scripture says. Read it for what it is and stop adding to it to please your ears. That’s only an imaginative opinion (platitude is the more appropriate word) straight from the mouths of your rabbis.
A lazy response because you cannot answer it. The point here is your replacement theology you are spewing out like a broken sewerage line. You are deluded and your mind is warped.
Messiah was only Jewish because he came from tribe of Judah? Ok then so what does that mean? Is he is Jewish or he is not Jewish? Not sure what point you are trying to make here. It is clear he practiced Jewish law, was born to Jewish parents, was circumcised on the 8th day, went to synagogue and the temple, followed all the Mosaic laws and was crucified with a sign written by romans above his head “king of the jews”
Writing G-d in this form has all to do with respecting Him. Explain your accusation that I don’t acknowledge Him. Claiming the Jewish Faith hates Messiah is a downright lie. In contrary it is the actions of the church and people like you that caused such revulsion towards the Messiah in the way they were treated in name of the church and pagans like you claiming to be followers of Messiah. Many Jews eagerly recognise and await the return of the Messiah. That is fact.
“Gentiles who call themselves Jews”. That’s not what the Scripture says. Read it for what it is and stop adding to it to please your ears. That’s only an imaginative opinion (platitude is the more appropriate word) straight from the mouths of your rabbis.” Ineptitude is a word that better describes you. So let me educate your clumsy mind. Read Rev 2.2 – the same kind of expression “you tested those who call themselves emissaries but aren’t – and you found them to be liars” It obviously refers to false apostles and there the commentators accept the literal sense without demur. But here (2:9) they opt for the metaphorical interpretation that John is talking about Jews who reject Jesus as Messiah instead of the literal understanding that these are non-Jews who lie and say they are jews but are in fact gentiles. In this way a verse which says nothing about jews is given a virulently antisemitic significance. The net result is that over the centuries Jews have had the epithet “synagogue of satan” hurled at them by Christians who thought they understood the bible perfect description of a fool like you.
You cannot back it up with legitimate sources of information as I have pointed out earlier and your source of information is Wikipedia. You are a waste of time and a time wastet to even bother responding to. Provide me the sources of your information and I may respond, but until such time, I have no intention of wasting further time with a conspiracy theorist whom refers me to “Wikipedia”
I cannot answer what, exactly?
I’ve answered your questions. You have not answered mine. You’ve ignored my questions and you’ve ignored my claims.
The wikipedia article was given to you because it links to most of the sources I’m referring – making it easy for you to vet the claims.
These things should be easy to “disprove” as you claim, but you haven’t done anything but whine and pout about having to go through the trouble of providing evidence yourself.
Judea what a country, so sure one could at a stretch call a nation a tribe. They are all semitic, Arabic. The Jews are not Arabs, they are European WW2 refugees and they are not Israelites, but the Pharisees political party who invented Judaism post 70 CE.
The Roman empire wiped them off the face of Earth in 70 CE, for rebelling against Roman rule.
Jacob obtained both the birthright blessing and the kingship blessing. The birthright promise of Jacob was given to his grandsons Ephraim and Manessah. The scepter/kingship promise was given to Judah.
listen to this AWESOME Speech https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwztaQgv3-Y
True Zionism is the longing for the appearance of Messiah and ruling and reigning with Him. Israel is His land. If you are not a Zionist, it is nearly impossible to be living as a true believer in Yeshua (Jesus). In other words, you are homeless.
Judaism is a religion; but Zionism is a political movement started mainly by East European (Ashkenazi) Jews who for centuries have been the main force behind communism/socialism. The ultimate goal of the Zionists is one-world government under the control of the Zionists and the Zionist-oriented Jewish international bankers. ― Jack Bernstein author of “The Life of an American Jew in Racist Marxist Israel” and a self proclaimed Ashkenazi Jew
You are correct in the above statement, however judaism is a man made religion and it is not of the doctrines given unto Moses, or of Christ
Galatians 5:18 – But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
cow pie again well said!!
The problem today is that few operate with the infilling of the Holy Spirit, and without Christ’s Spirit of Truth
His Words and indeed a personal Walk with Him are quite impossible!!
Destined2b/crowpie
I will ask you the same question I asked crowpie;
The Holy Righteous Law of God is — SO HOLY — it is written in STONE by the finger of GOD and both stones are safely kept in the Arc of the Covenant which is under the Mercy Seat in the HOLY of HOLIES – kept under the very Throne of God the Father! God the Father must deem them VERY HOLY.
And so called Christians must then firmly believe Jesus Christ came into the HOLY of HOLIES and into God the Father’s Holy Throne, remove the two tablets of stone and cast out them of the HOLY OF HOLIES — the HOLY LAW of GOD is cast aside???????
If something that HOLY can be cast aside — what if God decides it is time for a new dispensation and cast you aside — and you, of and by yourself, are not HOLY.
God has NO dispensations — my Father never changes.
DESTINED2BWHAT?
I am asking a legitimate question, is it possible to get a legitimate response from you — ??
You are presenting yourself as a knowledgeable teacher of the Bible, this is a serious question regarding the Word of God and the Law of God.
Do you believe Jesus Christ went into the HOLY of HOLIES and took the two tablets of Stone out of the Arc of the Covenant which is placed under the Mercy Seat, the THRONE of God the Father, and cast the HOLY 10 Commandments aside?
The High Priest can only enter the HOLY of HOLIES once a year.
These 2 tablets of stone on which were written by the finger of GOD the 10 Commandments that are so HOLY to GOD the Father that they are kept under His Throne in the ARC of the COVENANT– Jesus Christ just discarded them??? They are no longer HOLY??
Do you have any thoughts mr. destined to be???
by the way my dog is named “Dude”
These 2 tablets of stone on which were written by the finger of GOD the 10 Commandments that are so HOLY to GOD the Father that they are kept under His Throne in the ARC of the COVENANT– Jesus Christ just discarded them??? They are no longer HOLY??
——-
Yes. He died.
Or they discarded Him.
Either way the separation of was real.
And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
damnle
brilliant comment!!
The Bible is full of separations. Pharisee itself means separation I think I once heard.
Man is separated from woman
Justification by faith is separated from justification by works
damnle
Sorry
I was being facetious — should have use a question mark
No! it is impossible for the HOLY LAW of GOD which defines HIS Perfect Nature to be separated from HIM>
The Law is not evil because humans can not keep it — it just means we are evil.
The Father is not changing the Law nor eliminating the Law HE is Changing our natures into HIM HOLY Divine Perfect Nature.
With HIS Nature we will then live by every Word of God.
If you think you still are under the old law where then is the covering for your sins
Do you have your own Levite somwhere
the Arc of the Covenant which is under the Mercy Seat in the HOLY of HOLIES – kept under the very Throne of God the Father
Show us the verses to back up this silly statement Please!!
destined2b???
You claim to preach the Word of God — and you do not even understand the Throne of God the Father which Jesus Christ stands on the right side of in the 3rd heaven???
The Ark
Exodus 25
10 “Have them make an –ark -of acacia wood—two and a half cubits long, a cubit and a half wide, and a cubit and a half high.
11 Overlay it with pure gold, both inside and out, and make a gold molding around it.
12 Cast four gold rings for it and fasten them to its four feet, with two rings on one side and two rings on the other.
13 Then make poles of acacia wood and overlay them with gold.
14 Insert the poles into the rings on the sides of the ark to carry it.
15 The poles are to remain in the rings of this ark; they are not to be removed.
16 Then put in the ark the — tablets of the covenant law, –which I will give you.
17 “Make an atonement cover of pure gold—two and a half cubits long and a cubit and a half wide.
18 And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover.
19 Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends.
20 The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover.
21 Place—the cover on top of the ark –and —put in the ark the tablets of the covenant law that I will give you.
22 There,— above– the cover between the two cherubim that are — over the ark of the covenant law,— I will meet with you and give you all my commands for the Israelites.
Exodus 40
17 And it came to pass in the first month in the second year, on the first day of the month, that the tabernacle was reared up.
18And Moses reared up the tabernacle, and fastened his sockets, and set up the boards thereof, and put in the bars thereof, and reared up his pillars.
19 And he spread abroad the tent over the tabernacle, and put the covering of the tent above upon it; as the LORD commanded Moses.
20 And he took and– put the testimony into the ark,– and set the staves on the ark,——- and put the mercy seat– above– upon the ark:
21 And he brought the ark into the tabernacle, and set up the vail of the covering, and covered the ark of the testimony; as the LORD commanded Moses.
You do under stand the Throne of God the Father is in the Holy of Holies don’t you or do I have to show you where that is too????
destined2b???
“”"Show us the verses to back up this silly statement Please!!”"
Dest– here are the “”silly”" verses that you think don’t exist — I wonder what else you do not have a clue about???
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
destined to be
I knew you could not answer because it would destroy all you believe and teach. I used the Logic of my Father to put you in an impossible position.
Isaiah 8
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
There is no light in you.
Jesus is my Light
He Loves you also, repent and
let Him abide in you
The Old Testament Law is Obsolete
The Old Testament Law which is obsolete, has been replaced by the New Testament Covenant. As a result of the death and resurrection of Christ, true Spirit filled believers understand that they are not under the Old Testament Law. This article will help the reader to understand the new Law of Christ.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
The Old Testament law is fulfilled as they come to pass in the New Testament revelations.
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
The Old Testament Law of Moses, written on tablets of stone, was given unto Israel after the flesh. These people continuously rejected God the Father and served many strange gods, only a remnant sought Jehovah through faith.
Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Destined2b So you can speak?
YOU wrote “The Old Testament Law is Obsolete”
And “The Old Testament Law which is obsolete, has been replaced by the New Testament Covenant”
How did you make the determination that it was the Law that was obsolete?? Paul says if the first contract had been faultless then a 2nd would not be necessary.
AND — Paul says the fault was with THEM — the children of Israel, implying the fault was not the contract or the Law but the Israelites that would not keep their side of the agreement. They refused to obey.
Also you said the old law was obsolete and was replace by a new covenant ??–sorry that makes no sense. If that was the case why not just replace the Law with a better Law that would not require a new contract.
But in actual fact the Law remained and what was changed were the promises of God. Paul clearly states the change involved only the Promises of God nothing else.
According to your beliefs Christ had to remove the Law from under the Throne of God and cast it in the trash. Really??? The HOLY LAW is now no longer HOLY?
Here is the quote by Paul pointing the finger of blame at the children of Israel.
Hebrews 8
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with —THEM —, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
You know that old worn out phrase you use “not under the law” , how is it you can not put 2 and 2 together??? Before Christ came and died — every single human on earth was and actually still is “UNDER the condemnation of the LAW” i.e. they are condemned to death because they transgressed the LAW. And that is everyone on earth whether or not they were Jews or gentiles, all are condemned to death for transgressing the HOLY LAW of GOD. Stop and think if there is no law then there are no bad folks of earth — the laws against what the world is doing in no longer wrong.
Christ did not come to remove or to destroy the Law, which He clearly stated in Matthew 5, —-but to remove the “penalty” of the LAW!
I am no longer condemned by the Law or and under the penalty of death for my transgressions, Christ paid that penalty for me..I am free and under no death penalty.
Are you able to think logically? The Commandments explain what sin —“IS” —With out the list of what sin is – how would any know what sin was??
IF the Law was removed PLEASE explain what are we to Repent of???
If you do not understand my words — and the logic in them coupled with the words of Christ and the apostles then you will continue as you are. so sad.
Can you not read or is it comprehension that you struggle with?
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
The Old Testament law is fulfilled as they come to pass in the New Testament revelations.
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
The Old Testament Law of Moses, written on tablets of stone, was given unto Israel after the flesh. These people continuously rejected God the Father and served many strange gods, only a remnant sought Jehovah through faith.
Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Destined2b
Here in a scripture you used to disprove other scriptures I presented — you have disproved your own doctrine.
God the Father is changing the nature of people — not casting away HIS HOLY LAW, The Law is still in the New Covenant, Still in the HOLY of HOLIES, God is changing human nature not the LAW.
our Father is removing our carnal human nature by the circumcision with out hands and replacing it with HIS Divine HOLY Righteous Nature.
The Nature of God the Father can be understood by the 10 Commandments –in His great love for man HE is making, building in us — HIS Divine nature — God is giving us the ability to willingly live by every WORD of GOD.
D2b the Word of God is so much deeper then you have ever imagined, please take these things to our Father and ask HIM if they be true. Christ taught us to pray to HIS Father and our Father will answer an honest question.
Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Christ is the Father and the Father is the son
Christ was made in the likeness of man
Jesus said I and the Father are one
Explain the verse below for us all
The mystery of the Godhead can only be understood through the Spirit of Truth
You need to find this truth
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6).
“The Beast will set up his headquarters in the holy mountain, which is in Jerusalem. During the time of the Great Tribulation, Jerusalem is referred to spiritually, as Sodom and Egypt (Rev 11:8).
Contrary to the popular teachings of a rebuilt temple for the jewish people, this will not occur as the Judgment of the Great Whore eliminates this as a possibility.”
Great article – well done, some true spiritual discernment at last!!
To: The Ferrett
I have a great teacher
The Holy Spirit
Thanks for your kind words very rare these days!!
This is not an insult but there are several current commentors who consider the Holy Spirit was their teacher. I do not believe the Holy Spirit gives different information to different people. Perhaps the Holy Spirit is allowing other people to give you the correct interpretation and you are refusing to accept it. Using the Holy Spirit as your claim to truth is treading on shaky ground.
ephraim at least your comments are decent, bravo!!
You are correct the Holy Spirit gives the same truths to those who will listen
The postings that are presented are not my own, I have nothing to gain, i do not hate anyone who believes that they are still under the old testament laws.
Also We are not looking for a following but rather are trying to help others to seek the truth through the Holy Spirit that Christ gives to all that ask!
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; John 14:16
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:26
Ephraim, i am one of those who considers the Holy Spirit as my Teacher / Instructor.
He also teaches out of some of His sons and daughters, to which I am to be taught from His discernment, when His Divine Life is in their words or not.
When the Life of the Holy Spirit is not present in the words of the “teaching” the teaching is not to be received, even if every word is doctrinally correct !
Example: All of the un-believer scholars in Judaism who have never received His Life, with endless words of teaching, and not one word of their teachings have Life in them.
Divine Life in a teaching, Yes or No, known by the instant discernment of the Holy Spirit within.
All of the above is ‘best case senerio” of course, I’m still being taught.
judaism is a man made religion and is really primarily a Babylonian talmud teaching of the traditions of men and and and it has very little if anything to do with even the Old Testament
for in the Old Testament the religion of those is Judea, and those of the tribe of Judah are condemned more often than nought.
There we go that will be in the next article
The ordinances of Moses, the sacrifices and festivals ended at the cross.
Not God’s holy law the Ten Commandments.
The law and the Gospel are intimately connected. They are closely associated. If the divine law had never been transgressed, there would have been no need of the Gospel. Since the basis of God’s government and authority is the immutable law, when this divine code was violated, a remedy for sin was essential. The saving grace of God is His only remedy.” -F.C.Gilbert “Messiah in His Sanctuary” p. 20
Some churches preach to this day that Jesus abolished the Ten Commandments when He died on the cross. They proclaim this assumption by using Ephesians 2:15 as their basis of evidence, which says. “Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;…” The obvious truth here is, that the verse states that it was the Commandments contained in ORDINANCES that was abolished at the cross. Not the Ten Commandments contained in stone. The passage in Colossians 2:14-17 has also been used to preach the Commandments abolished. But if you read it you will find it was, “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances”, again that is mentioned in that passage. According to the Word of God, these ordinances were “added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made” (Galatians 3:19) It’s rather clear to see here that the “commandments contained in ordinances” were added by Moses for a specific reason. If we read the passage again we see it also states these ordinances were only added TILL the seed should come. And who was this seed according to Scripture? Galatians 3:16 boldly proclaims, “thy seed, which is Christ.”
The commandments contained in ordinances were added by Moses thousands of years ago as a way to prepare the people for the FIRST arrival of Messiah. They showed their faith in the coming Messiah by keeping the ordinances on a regular basis. When Jesus died on the cross, the ordinances were no longer needed because he fulfilled them by all He did while visiting us as Messiah. So, what are these ordinances? In Colossians 2:14-17 it says… “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”
http://www.remnantofgod.org/The-Law.htm
amminadab
what do make of these scriptures from Zechariah 14?
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
God installed them then when Christ came He did away with them and now with Christ in His kingdom on earth — if the gentiles do not come to the feast of Tabernacle they are punished with plagues??
What is up with that?? maybe they are not done away as you imagine??
Jesus Himself said, “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.” -John 15:10
Some still hold to their beliefs that the Law is abolished because this was said by Jesus BEFORE the cross itself. So what did the Holy Spirit indwelt Apostles of Jesus Christ believe AFTER Jesus died and resurrected? Did they keep and preach the Ten Commandments as Truth? Upwards of 60 years after the cross of Christ John the Apostle said in 1 John 3:22, “And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.” 1 John 5:2 also states, ” By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.” 1 John 5:3 declares, ” For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.” If you do a study on this you will find literally dozens of New Testament Scriptures proving the early Christian church indeed KEPT the Ten Commandments in loving obedience to their Heavenly Father. These three I just quoted should be all the Christian needs. Why? They are IN THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE and the Apostles themselves penned those words as inspired Truth for all those after them to embrace.
The ordinances of Moses, the sacrifices and festivals ended at the cross.
Not God’s holy law the Ten Commandments.
Show us where one is kept but the other is not?
Christ gave us two commandments, and all of His other teachings fall under them
Did Christ keep the Sabbath Absolutely not
“It was impossible for the sinner to keep the law of God, which was holy, just, and good; but this impossibility was removed by the impartation of the righteousness of Christ to the repenting, believing soul. The life and death of Christ in behalf of sinful man were for the purpose of restoring the sinner to God’s favor, through imparting to him the righteousness that would meet the claims of the law and find acceptance with the Father.
But it is ever the purpose of Satan to make void the law of God and to pervert the true meaning of the plan of salvation. Therefore he has originated the falsehood that the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary’s cross was for the purpose of freeing men from the obligation of keeping the commandments of God. He has foisted upon the world the deception that God has abolished His constitution, thrown away His moral standard, and made void His holy and perfect law. Had He done this, at what terrible expense would it have been to Heaven! Instead of proclaiming the abolition of the law, Calvary’s cross proclaims in thunder tones its immutable and eternal character. Could the law have been abolished, and the government of heaven and earth and the unnumbered worlds of God maintained, Christ need not have died. The death of Christ was to forever settle the question of the validity of the law of Jehovah. Having suffered the full penalty for a guilty world, Jesus became the Mediator between God and man, to restore the repenting soul to favor with God by giving him grace to keep the law of the Most High. Christ came not to destroy the law or the prophets, but to fulfill them to the very letter. The atonement of Calvary vindicated the law of God as holy, just, and true, not only before the fallen world but before heaven and before the worlds unfallen. Christ came to magnify the law and to make it honorable.” -Faith and Works page 118
thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:”
Correct! But to walk IN THAT LOVE you must at first be KEEPING THAT LAW. Keeping the Law of God is actually open evidence that you DO love your neighbor. In fact, Jesus summerized the LAST SIX commandments like this…
John 13:34, “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.”
Look at the last six commandments and see it is our relationship WITH EACH OTHER. To keep those commandments proves you LOVE your neigbor. Would you show love to your neighbor if you steal from him? Kill him? Covet his wife or his good? Lie about him? Etc…
So, I agree, the New Covenant is indeed based on love. But to truly love each other we must keep the ten commandments. And by the way, this theology runs true with the first four commandments as well. How so…?
Matthew 22:37-38, “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.”
Is this something that can be verified as an Old Covenant promise He desired of us?
Deuteronomy 6:5, “And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.”
Deuteronomy 11:13, “And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,”
Joshua 22:5, “But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the LORD charged you, to love the LORD your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.”
It says.. Heart? Mind?
Hebrews 10:16, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;”
Want the entire Decalogue (Ten Commandments) summerized in ONE NEW TESTAMENT VERSE?
Luke 10:27, “And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.”
The REAL definition of love … John 14:15, “If ye love me, keep my commandments.”
Matthew 22:37-40, “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. (Christ summarized the first four) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Jesus summarized the last six) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”
Think about how we as humans show love to one another by keeping The Law of God…
Do you show love when you don’t honor your mother or father?
Do you show love when you kill your fellow man?
Do you show love when you commit adultery against your spouse?
Do you show love when you steal from your fellow man?
Do you show love when you bear false witness against your fellow man?
Do you show love when you covet your neighbors wife or anything else that belongs to Him?
If as Christian’s we realize that in order to show love for our fellow man, you must keep all of the last six commandments. Can you not also see as a Christian that to show love unto God is to keep the first four commandments?
If you as a Christian realize that in order to show love for your fellow man, you must keep all of the last six commandments that Jesus summarized as the “second commandment” in Matthew 22:39. Can you not also see as a Christian that to show love unto God is to keep the first four commandments that Jesus summarized in Matthew 22:37,38?
So, I ask you.
Do you show love for the Lord when you place another god before Him?
Do you show love for the Lord when you bow down before an image?
Do you show love for the Lord when you take His name in vain?
Do you really love Him when you break His Sabbath that He speciafically said was the seventh day, and He specifically said to REMEMBER it?
I ask those that break His law knowingly. Why is it you can so easily show love for each other, but when you are asked to show love to God, it’s impossible? The REAL Christian will not only keep all ten of the commandments. The REAL Christian will go beyond them because of their love for Jesus! Case in point, Jesus said in Matthew 5:40-41, “And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.”
Love always gives more than is required without looking upon it as a burden. 1 John 5:3 said, “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.” It’s no such much that Jesus is FORCING us to love each other. It’s more like He is stating we WILL love our fellow man more than the norm simply because Christ’s love will be apparent within us.
The true Christian will go the extra mile simply because their love compels them to do so. They do so with a joyful heart a heart that won’t grumble while going the extra mile simply because they feel their fellow man needs them to, and in Christian love they are compelled to show this love. We should go far beyond that which is written. For example, the Law states thou shalt not committ adultery. But Jesus illustrates how much more the true Christian love will abound for Him and His truth by saying…
Matthew 5:28, “…That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”
Jesus shows that the true Christian will go far beyond the written letter of the law. Love will always raise the standard. The Christian not only keeps the Ten Commandments. He or she will also go so far as to not even THINK on those things within the heart that are against the Law of their God. We do this because we love Him and want to please HIm with all our hearts! We don’t do this because we don’t want to burn in Hell. Christianity isn’t fire insurance! Thoughts like this don’t even come to the mind of the true child of God. It truly is a labor of love.
Philippians 4:8, “Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.”
Amminadab,
This is the closest expression I have seen (on these boards) that comes anywhere near the mind and heart set Christians should possess. It should be as close to a natural state of being a possible.
Lovely post.
Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.Isa 51:7
The Old law was made for a disobedient people who needed strict rules and guidelines
Those who have the New Law of Christ obviously don’t steal cheat lie or murder
Silly statement
Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it. Jer 6:19
And the LORD saith, Because they have forsaken my law which I set before them, and have not obeyed my voice, neither walked therein;
14 But have walked after the imagination of their own heart, and after Baalim, which their fathers taught them:
15 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will feed them, even this people, with wormwood, and give them water of gall to drink.
16 I will scatter them also among the heathen, whom neither they nor their fathers have known: and I will send a sword after them, till I have consumed them.
Jer 9:13-16 (KJV)
Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.
25 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised;
26 Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.
Jer 9:23-26 (KJV)
Ponder these verses
#17-20 Let none suppose that Christ allows his people to trifle with any commands of God’s holy law. No sinner partakes of Christ’s justifying righteousness, till he repents of his evil deeds. The mercy revealed in the gospel leads the believer to still deeper self-abhorrence. The law is the Christian’s rule of duty, and he delights therein. If a man, pretending to be Christ’s disciple, encourages himself in any allowed disobedience to the holy law of God, or teaches others to do the same, whatever his station or reputation among men may be, he can be no true disciple. Christ’s righteousness, imputed to us by faith alone, is needed by every one that enters the kingdom of grace or of glory; but the new creation of the heart to holiness, produces a thorough change in a man’s temper and conduct. -Matthew Henry comments on Matthew 5:17-20
The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek (Psalms 110:4).
Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:11-17 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
H.M.S. Richards summed it up when he said..
How can a man take God’s Sabbath for his own selfish use without stealing, and this without breaking the 8th commandment? How can he steal a thing without first coveting it, and breaking the 10th commandment? How can he in this way put himself first, even before God, without breaking the 1st commandment? How can he make such an idol of himself without breaking the 2nd commandment? And how can he not break the 3rd commandment, since God has placed His holy name right there within the 4th commandment? How can he show such disrespect for his heavenly Father without breaking the 5th commandment? How can he commit such sin when God has said that the sure result of sin is death, without being guilty of the 6th commandment, and taking his own life? How can he do all of this, and justify his words and say that he is telling the truth, and break the 9th commandment? And last but not least, how can he go so completely away from his spiritual spouse and join with the sinful world, without being guilty of the 7th commandment? Can you now think that the 4th commandment is of no consequence?
Psalms 19:7, “The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.”
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Mark 2:27
The sabbath was for the Hebrews
Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them. John 9:16
Christ did not keep the Sabbath
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Col 2:16
The sabbath today is a distorted law to keep the corporations going full speed ahead
and to keep the tithes coming in as well which also is of the old law
Destinedtobeinthelakeoffire
“”"The Sabbath was for the Hebrews”"?????? –How in the world did you ever come up with that lie??
Do you not even understand the Sabbath was the 7th day of Creation week – only Adam was on earth and he was no Hebrew.
THERE WAS NOT A HEBREW ON EARTH WHEN THE SABBATH WAS MADE — NOR WERE THERE ANY UNTIL EBER WAS BORN. Eber began the Hebrews from which Abraham came.
AND HERE IS ANOTHER FACT— THE SABBATH IS THE 4TH COMMANDMENT AND IF CHRIST HAD NOT KEPT THE SABBATH HOLY — HE WOULD NOT BE OUR SAVIOR.
No Christ did not keep the traditions of the Jews!
YOU?????? ARE PRESENTING YOURSELF AS A TEACHER AND YOU DO NOT EVEN UNDERSTAND THESE BASIC FACTS??????????????
“Christ did not keep the Sabbath” —blasphemy
The Sabbath is a sign between God and His people that keeps His people in the knowledge of who their GOD IS!
19 I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them;
20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.
Too garrulous and too vague — get to the point with far less verbiage.
1 John 3:4 Sin is the transgression of the law.
This is the only definition of sin given. Without the law there can be no transgression. By the
law is knowledge of sin. The standard of righteousness is exceedingly broad, prohibiting every
evil thing.
Christ consented to die in the sinner’s stead, that man, by
a life of obedience, might escape the penalty of the law of God. His death did not make the law of none effect; it did not slay the law, lessen its holy claims, nor detract from its sacred dignity. The death of Christ proclaimed the justice of His Father’s law in punishing the transgressor, in that He consented to suffer the penalty of the law Himself in order to save fallen man from its curse. The death of God’s beloved Son on the cross shows the immutability of the law of God. His death magnifies the law and makes it honorable, and gives evidence to man of its changeless character. From His own divine lips are heard the words: “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.” The death of Christ justified the claims of the law.
Are you physically incapable of replying to a comment’s thread or has your feverish endeavor to spread the gospel of Ellen White via copy/paste blinded you from noticing the “Reply” button at the bottom of a response?
yes and yes.
That was funny.
amminadab
I believe you and I agree on something. Christ did not come to do away with the Law – He came to do away with the penalty of death we all are “under” . Christ paid the penalty of Death that I was under and now I am no longer under the penalty of Death.
But The Law is in force and If i return to sin — willfully — the Law will require my death.
Truthseeker,
Now we are getting somewhere…..
I agree with both you and amminadab.
” Christ paid the penalty of Death that I was under, (I am on Probation ) and If i return to sin — willfully — the Law will require my death.
Well of course that’s what it means, the purchase has the condition of the Bride remaining pure. If any member of the church falls short they are no longer covered by the Blood of Christ but as lost as the people who refuse to accept HIM as Messiah.
But that has nothing to do with the Old Law. That’s the conditions of His Sacrifice and our obedience and faith.
crowpie,
“the bride remaining pure”"????
Our obedience??
How pure? – obedience to what??
Crowpie — in Matthew 19 Christ tells the rich man to keep the Commandments and then list a few — are you telling us after making this clear statement Christ then abolishes or changes what He told the rich man?? Did Christ LIE? Why bother making a point He knew He was then going to change??
When Christ spoke of the Commandments to His Apostles there were only the 10! The book we call the New Covenant was not broadly available until the printing press and then you had to be rich to buy one — all the disciples had for centuries was the “Law and the Prophets”. They did not have what you quoted And many of those letters were written decades after Christ died.
Your long list explains in fine detail how we are to break down the Commandments and live as close as humanly possibly by every word of God,
The word commandments is not a true rendering of the Hebrew word. According to Jeff Brenner of The Mechanical Hebrew Site, the Hebrew word is “Rules for the trail” .
The Commandments are what we are to use as a guide to keep us on that “narrow” path to life. We are here to learn how to live by those Commandments and that is not at all easy to do.
Did the path Moses and Abraham followed change after Christ came??
My 75 years has been difficult, many many times I have been faced with choices I had to make that were very very hard to determine what was the correct path according to the LAW. We learn by doing.
I read your comment to my last and I could not disagree more with your answer. GOD does not change—-
Here in Hebrews 8 is a verse that clearly explains the difference between the Old and the New.
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
verse 10 shows one of the reasons the new contract is better.
God is now going to — change — “THE PEOPLE “ — NOT the LAW.
God is putting in man HIS Divine Nature.
crowpie — the 10 Commandments reveal for us the HOLY, Righteous, Perfect Divine Nature of God the Father –the very Nature we can be given by the in dwelling of God the Father’s Spirit.
With the Father’s nature being developed in us we can begin to live by every word of God.
I trust my Father because I now know HIS VERY NATURE.
Crowpie, Jesus Christ is your elder brother and God the Father is greater then Christ and is the one we are to worship.
Ahem….
“I trust my Father because I now know HIS VERY NATURE.”
That is quite a claim. You must be VERY PROUD……and delusional.
Just one question…..if you know the “very nature of God”….will you please fix the drought, dry up the floods and make sure the southern states have a mild winter?
We could use an easy winter, up here, as well.
crowpie
The nature of God the Father is revealed by the 10 Commandments.
I am not speaking of what He is composed of or of the weather but His Divine Holy Righteous Perfect character.
I trust no man and never a women because both lie.
It is impossible for My Father to lie.
Truthseeker, about the 10 words of the Old Covenant, the ones for self-righteousnessas Moses proclaimed, and how they are viewed by some in the New Covenant.
I’ve seen others in the past go against the words of others like against ‘destined’ seemingly based on the same differences, and it goes on and on.
Best at this point I can explain is New Wine skins for the New Wine. There are other applications for that concept, but I am only focusing on the following:
Which is simply that those in the Old Covenant “followed” the “instructions” in letter form from their own selves (souls) equaling ‘self-righteousness”.
In the New Covenant, those who have the Holy Spirit in them as the “Instructor”,
follow “Him” from-their-spirits in doing those righteous instructions ( 10 ) and commandments of Yhwshua, which amounts to God-righteousness, and which comes from His wisdom in leading the believer.
So, the difference is Old Covenant self-righteousness of one doing His commands out from their self ( soul ), and the New Covenant of God-righteousness where the believer follows the Holy Spirit from their spirits concerning any commands or instructions.
Doing the commands through one’s own wisdom,
or
doing the commands as led by the Holy Spirit and His wisdom.
Pierced,
I “think” I follow your line of thought —
I have copied something I sent to someone else because it may explain my thoughts to you from a different point of view. Let me know if this makes sense.
I have spent my business life using contracts to do business. American contract law is based upon the Covenants of God. I am not an expert but have drawn thousands.
There are at least two parties to a contract and in both the old and the new it is God and the children of Israel; this has never changed.
The “consideration” which is what Israel has to do or pay i.e. their contract duty is obey the 10 Commandments which include the statutes and Judgments, The Sacrificial law is not a part of the old contract.
On Gods side of the old contract His responsibility is what is called “the Promises” these promises can be found in Leviticus 26: 1 – 13. The promises are all physical promise nothing more.
When Christ came to affirm the new contract, according to Paul and everything I have read in God’s Word, the only changes were the promises of God.
Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established — upon better promises.
In other words nothing was changed but the promises. And to make it clearer in verse 10
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
The promises God is now making in the new covenant is to — change the people — not the Law. God is going to put in His people HIS Divine Nature which loves the Law.
The Holy Law is still under the Throne of God in the Arc of the Covenant and in the HOLY of HOLIES. The Commandments of God define His perfect Divine nature.
Christ did complete or fill up the Law as before it was physical and now Christ has raised the bar – it is now spiritual as well. Before if you actually killed someone that was murder: murder can now be done in the mind and that is now a sin.
The old contact was a physical contract for a physical people with a physical law and with physical promises – the new is a spiritual contract for a spiritual people with a spiritual law and spiritual promises.
The promises God the Father now offers: forgiveness of sin by the sacrifice of Christ, His Spirit in us and eternal life. Very short explanation.
Most folks do not understand contract law, thus have no idea what was involved in the old or the new.
they try to make it a Mystery which it is not. It is simple: ” if you do this – I will do that”
The children could not obey the Law so God the Father is making a change IN the PEOPLE, in their nature, that will give them the WILL and the desire to obey the LAW.
I hope this opens a door for you –Ask for help for our Father and then think and study on the main points.
CrowPie excellent post
The New Law of Christ, in the two commandments He gave!!
All of His teachings may be followed with the Spirit of Truth He offers to all who will Submit
to His authority
Those who THINK they can be declared righteous through the workings of the Old Law that has vanished with Christ are deceived and practice self-righteousness unto death!!!
So glad you asked…
John 14:15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Repent
“From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matthew 4:17).
•Follow Me
“And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men” (Matthew 4:19).
•Rejoice
“Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you” (Matthew 5:11–12).
•Let Your Light Shine
“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 5:16).
•Honor God’s Law
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill” (Matthew 5:17).
*Note it says “Honor” not remain under.
•Be Reconciled
“Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee; leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift” (Matthew 5:23–25).
•Do Not Lust
“But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell” (Matthew 5:28–30).
•Keep Your Word
“Let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil” (Matthew 5:37).
•Go the Second Mile
“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away” (Matthew 5:38–42).
•Love Your Enemies
“But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even the publicans the same?” (Matthew 5:44–46).
•Be Perfect
“If ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect” (Matthew 5:46–48).
•Practice Secret Disciplines
“. . . When thou doest thine alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: that thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. . . . When thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. . . . When thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; that thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly” (Matthew 6:1–18).
•Lay Up Treasures
“Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also” (Matthew 6:19–21).
•Seek God’s Kingdom
“Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you” (Matthew 6:33).
•Judge Not
“Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?” (Matthew 7:1–3).
•Do Not Cast Pearls
“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you” (Matthew 7:6).
•Ask, Seek, Knock
“Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened” (Matthew 7:7–8).
•Do Unto Others
“Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets” (Matthew 7:12).
•Choose the Narrow Way
“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it” (Matthew 7:13–14).
•Beware of False Prophets
“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?” (Matthew 7:15–16).
•Pray for Laborers
“The harvest truly is plenteous, but the laborers are few; pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth laborers into his harvest” (Matthew 9:37–38).
•Be Wise as Serpents
“Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves” (Matthew 10:16).
•Fear Not
“Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matthew 10:28).
•Hear God’s Voice
“He that hath ears to hear, let him hear” (Matthew 11:15).
•Take My Yoke
“Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light” (Matthew 11:28–30).
•Honor Your Parents
“For God commanded, saying, Honor thy father and mother: and, he that curseth father or mother, let him die the death” (Matthew 15:4).
•Beware of Leaven
“Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees” (Matthew 16:6).
•Deny Yourself
“If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?” (Luke 9:23–25).
•Despise Not Little Ones
“Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 18:10).
•Go to Offenders
“Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican” (Matthew 18:15–17).
•Beware of Covetousness
“And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth” (Luke 12:15).
•Forgive Offenders
“Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven” (Matthew 18:21–22).
•Honor Marriage
“And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder” (Matthew 19:4–6).
•Be a Servant
“. . . Whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; and whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many” (Matthew 20:26–28).
•Be a House of Prayer
“It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer . . . ” (Matthew 21:13).
•Ask in Faith
“Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea: it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive” (Matthew 21:21–22).
•Bring In the Poor
“Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbors; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompense be made thee. But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: and thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:12–14).
•Render to Caesar
“Show me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s” (Matthew 22:19–21).
•Love the Lord
“Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment” (Matthew 22:37–38).
•Love Your Neighbor
“And the second [commandment] is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets” (Matthew 22:39–40).
•Await My Return
“Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh” (Matthew 24:42–44).
•Take, Eat, and Drink
“As they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins” (Matthew 26:26–28).
•Be Born Again
“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again” (John 3:5–7).
•Keep My Commandments
“If ye love me, keep my commandments” (John 14:15).
•Watch and Pray
“Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).
•Feed My Sheep
“So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jona, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jona, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep” (John 21:15–16).
•Baptize My Disciples
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matthew 28:19).
•Receive God’s Power
“And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high” (Luke 24:49).
•Make Disciples
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations . . . teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen” (Matthew 28:19–20).
Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
destined2b
PLEASE show me where it says that righteousness can be gained by simply keeping the LAW?
The OLD Testament, the first contract is —– “keep the Law” or you will DIE — period.
NEVER was salvation, forgiveness or eternal life offered by the first contract only physical blessing.
Abraham was accounted righteous by his faith –yes — because he kept the commandments, because he had TRUST in the promises God gave him and trusting in those promises he left his family to go he knew not where and trusting in those promises he was willing to offer his only son as a sacrifice.
Abraham was accounted as righteous because of the ACTION he took based upon the TRUST he had in the Word of GOD.
Abraham believed GOD and his actions PROVED his faith.
Holy BeJesus…those Kings must be pretty damn old by now.
Bible study much. Not! You are foolishly blinded by hate! You are on the wrong side of the end times!
The great whore is a pair of twins – the other one is the Catholic Church…
A little history lesson seems to be in order here !
The knights Templars start of like a kind of money trasfure system so you could deposit gold in Rome and then pick it up from them when you arived in a far away destination but soon the knights moved into banking and much of the world ended up in debt.
In the end the French owed them so much money that they had the incrisition and killed these bankers very slowly during the course of a day, end of debt.
Today we have every country in the world in debt but when you ask who do we owe all this money too, well it goes quiet but it’s jewish owned banks and we are now at the stage where they kill us or we kill them due to all the debt and manipulation thats going on.
I don’t need a bible to see where things are going and the bible bashers of today will be like the “2012′s” of yester-years and the bible is proved wrong once again.
Isreal has not been collecting nukes and biological weapons in it’s reseach labs for no reason and the only one that would safe them would be the devil himself, certainly not ant type of god.
Crow Pie, I am posting this again as I doubt you can find it in 95 comments.
I am writing this off BIN — Wow I have no tolerance for stuff like that.
Any way, let me take this point by point as I may not actually know where you are coming from.
It appears you believe the Law is still here in some form?? But was “altered” some how by Christ. Bride – bridegroom point you made.
I have spent my business life using contracts to do business. American contract law is based upon the Covenants of God. I am not an expert but have drawn thousands.
There are at least two parties to a contract and in both the old and the new it is God and the children of Israel; this has never changed.
The “consideration” which is what Israel has to do or pay i.e. their contract duty is obey the 10 Commandments which include the statutes and Judgments, The Sacrificial law is not a part of the old contract.
On Gods side of the old contract His responsibility is what is called “the Promises” these promises can be found in Leviticus 26: 1 – 13.
When Christ came to affirm the new contract, according to Paul and everything I have read in God’s Word, the only changes were the promises of God.
Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established — upon better promises.
In other words nothing was changed but the promises. And to make it clearer in verse 10
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
The promises God is now making in the new covenant is to — change the people — not the Law. God is going to put in His people HIS Divine Nature which loves the Law.
The Holy Law is still under the Throne of God in the Arc of the Covenant and in the HOLY of HOLIES. The Commandments of God define His perfect Divine nature.
You are correct Christ did complete or fill up the Law as before it was physical and now Christ has raised the bar – it is now spiritual as well. Before if you actually killed someone that was murder: murder can now be done in the mind and that is now a sin.
The old contact was a physical contract for a physical people with a physical law and with physical promises – the new is a spiritual contract for a spiritual people with a spiritual law and spiritual promises.
The promises God the Father now offers: forgiveness of sin by the sacrifice of Christ, His Spirit in us and eternal life. Very short explanation.
Next reading between the lines it appears you believe God the Father was the one that wrote the commandments with His finger, that the Father was the God in the Old Testament.
Christ Himself states no one has seen the Father but Him, but Moses talked face to face.
John 6
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Jesus Christ is that Rock that stone that followed Israel for 40 years, Christ did the actual creating of ALL things and Christ talked with Abraham etc. Christ is the WORD or if you will the spokesmen for the family of God i.e. God the Father and God the Son —-and if we endure until the end we too will become immortal Sons of God. And with the same spirit body as Christ.
Philippians 3
21 Who shall change our vile body,— that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, —–according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
This is getting long, so at this point if I am making no sense I will get lost or if you want more clarification I can do that.. or if you want to just cuss me out ….
Truthseeker,
I appreciate that you must think I am a dithering idiot and that this is all new information.
However, I disagree with you. No, the old law is not contained in the New Covenant. All the elements of the Ten Commandments are within the commands given us by Jesus, and as you well know, many more.
I with your assessment of Christ “unseating the Holy of Holies’ as He, of course, would have had to unseat Himself.
I have already explained my position very clearly above with the Bridegroom and Bride example ( a comparison often used of the Church and Christ). I don’t believe it gets any clearer.
When you try to compare the Holy of Holies to earthly contract law, it is offensive to me……only because God is All Powerful, it’s a Holy Covenant and not our piddly little agreements. Our agreements come to an end. Always. His Covenants may only be amended by Holy means. However, I will adjust my feelings for a moment and try to explain my position on your terms.
In contract law (assuming you don’t want the old law to end) Christ added a Clause. One that added His promises, the added commands that are listed in the New Testament and He did away with the cumbersome old law, allowing for only the New Testament to be valid, effective immediately.
Now…in this way….Yes….the old contract would still be effective, the old Law would not, and the New Testament would be effective……all contained within the OLD Law .
See….you can twist our modern day contracts to read (I know I didn’t use proper contract language) anything you want….Especially in a FAMILY TRUST.
My point is….I read scripture and take it as it reads. I’m wondering, what is it exactly do you think is lost, if Paul tells us in Romans that we are dead to the letter. We are supposed to be alive in Christ.
Philippians 4:8, “Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.”
crowpie
If the LAW is abolished then why does Peter make this statement?
II Peter 2: 20, 21.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known– the way of righteousness,– than, after they have known [it], —to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
Crowpie Christ came to LIVE that WAY of Righteousness as our example and as far as I can tell the HOLY COMMANDMENTS Peters is saying we should not turn from are the same 10 Commandments that are taught through out the entire Word of GOD and the Same exact Commandments Christ KEPT so He could become our Savior.
Should I believe you or Christ and Peter??
I understand your position. But here is the crux of the matter. Generally it is believed that the Old Law was created for the entire world to follow and benefit from…..but that is not the case. In order to know the end, you must know the beginning.
Gentiles were not Israelites. God spoke and said write down these words…..and gave the Ten Commandments. The rest of the law pertains to things such as how a man allow his side burns to grow and never ’round them off’ in order to distinguish them from the pagan priest that wore their hair in round, smooth ‘bowl cuts.’
It also prohibits tattoos (because of pagan ritual practices) and many other things. Tattoos were not prohibited in the New Testament….because at the time, tattoos were used to identify slaves. So it was no longer a form of worship of another god, just a matter of property identification.
There are a several examples of these kinds of changes….but, back to the point.
Generally it is believed that the Old Law was created for the entire world to follow and benefit from…..but that is not the case. The old covenant was only made with the Israelites in the time of the desert and was only meant to last for the until the Perfection of the Law was fulfilled.
The Old Testament law was given to a specific group of people, the Jews, and was never said to have been given to anyone else, Christians included.
Exodus 34:27 27 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”
The “children of Israel” were to “observe the sabbath throughout their generations” as a sign between God and the “children of Israel forever” See (Ex. 31:16-17).
God made the Mosaic covenant with the Jews of Moses’ day, not with others (Deuteronomy 5:1-3; Nehemiah 9:13-14)
Deuteronomy 5:1-3 1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear , O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep , and do them.
2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
For those who claim the Old Law ‘was from the beginning” the above is proof that it was not. It was made in the desert, with the ‘children of Israel’ to serve them during their stay and keep them in the way.
Nehemiah 9:13-14
13Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:
I believe that fully establishes the reason for the creation of the Old Law and who it was created for……now for the last question…..did it end?
Jer. 31:31-34 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 “They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
The fulfillment of Jeremiah’s prophecy is seen in Hebrews chapter eight:
Heb. 8
6* But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says, “BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH; 9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD. 10 “FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 11 “AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, ‘KNOW THE LORD,’ FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. 12 “FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.” 13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. The Old Testament law was nailed to the cross of Christ and thereby was brought to an end as a law to guide God’s people. Paul declared that Christians are “dead to the law by the body of Christ” and that this law was the law which said, “Thou shalt not covet”, i.e. the ten commandments law (Romans 7:4,7).
Elsewhere, Paul indicated that the veil which was “untaken away in the reading of the Old Testament . . . is done away in Christ,” the reason being it was “done away” (2 Corinthians 3:14,11). Christ “abolished in his flesh . . . the law of commandments by the cross” (Ephesains 2:15-16). In fact he was said to have removed the “handwriting of ordinances by nailing it to his cross”
(Colossians 2:14). The result is, then, that the Old Testament as a law for God’s people was removed by the death of Christ. Christians, therefore, are not to observe the Old Testament as the law for God’s service today.
Truthseeker,
BTW, the Old Testament is and old Law specifically is for our education. We need to be able to study it’s contents in order to learn what a sinful nature actually means.
Consider the old law forbidding the ‘bowl hair cut’ for men, or put another way….the demand that men allow their sideburns to grow and not be trimmed or clipped to the side of the head.
The reason for that command was that men of those times be differentiated from the pagan priests of the time who wore the ‘bowl hair cut’ -and worshiped pagan idols. It was offensive to a jealous God, so He forbade the practice. It was because we are to present ourselves worthy, faithful and worshiping no other God before HIm.
The practice of sideburn cutting is ignored by a great vast majority today because they know the history, the reason and the rightly divided word.
However, the very strictest of Jews will allow that part of their hair to grow very long……and curl it like a womans. And we all know that Jews don’t accept Christ as their Savior.
Do you want to look like a Jew that does not accept Christ? If you follow the letter of the Old Law…..you will. Considering the lesson we just discussed about differentiating ourselves from those who don’t worship Christ……you might want to think about that long and hard.
crowpie
I realize you, like most of so called christianity, wants so badly for that old harsh horrible Law to be trashed.
That “big mistake” of the Father to be trashed.
crow, Jesus Christ is the one that wrote that Law with His finger.
Christ and the FATHER are ONE — their nature is exactly the same.
Read,, every thing Christ said and did on earth was shown Him by the Father..The Words He spoke were the Father’s Words
Last 4 scriptures in the Old Testament
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. {THE END OF THE PROPHETS]
And then the Father said OOPS —
“I made a mistake with the Law of Moses I better send Jesus to take it away”??
Those that think this statement is true are going to learn it is not and soon.
crowpie
I just placed an article on BIN regarding the HOLY LAW of GOD.
I would love to know your thoughts as the question is approached from many logical view points and scriptures.
I is long and it grows stronger as it progresses.
Truthseeker,
You didn’t really read my post above concerning the prophecy of Jeremiah and the fulfillment of that prophecy in Hebrews chapter 8, did you?
Truthseeker and Ms. CrowPie:
If I may interject, I’d like to pose a question; but need to preface it.
In the film “The Last Temptation of Christ”, just as Jesus finished messing up the lender’s tables, he’s met by the High Priest of the Temple (I believe it was Ciaphas). Jesus says that he’s the new law. Ciaphas asks him if God has changed his mind about the old law, to which Christ replies “No. He just thinks our hearts are ready to hold more.”
I’m no Scripture expert, but could it be possible that Christ didn’t end the Old Law, but brought an addendum? Could it be that he did away with what had become unnecessary (the grooming requirements, dietary prohibitions, etc), and replaced them with what he brought to the party (universal love, compassion, etc…)?
Just a thought…..
Bill,
I would be inclined to agree with you whole heartedly except for two things.
Strangely enough, I found an article posted on Apologetics Press by Eric Lyons that answers this perfectly, to my estimation. The following is and excerpt:
“What some like the Seventh-Day Adventists teach, however, is that that God gave two laws on Mt. Sinai. They differentiate between the Ten Commandments and the ceremonial laws, saying that one (the Ten Commandments) is the Law of God and the other (the ceremonial laws) is the Law of Moses. Moreover, they assert that all of the passages in the Bible that refer to the old law being abolished are speaking of the ceremonial laws and not the Ten Commandments, which (they stress) were written with the very finger of God (Exodus 31:18).
Those who separate the “the Law of God” and “the Law of Moses” (in an attempt to find approval for continuing to follow portions of the old law) fail to realize that the Bible does not make such distinctions. Ezra read from “the Book of the Law of Moses,” which also was called “the Book of the Law of God” (Nehemiah 8:1,18). Luke recorded that after Mary gave birth to Jesus “when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord (as it is written in the law of the Lord, ‘Every male who opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord’), and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, ‘A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons’ ” (Luke 2:22-24, emp. added). The Law of Moses and the Law of the Lord were the same thing and still are. When writing to the brethren in Rome, the apostle Paul quoted from the Ten Commandments and taught that it was part of the old law to which they had “become dead…through the body of Christ” (Romans 7:4,7). In his second epistle to the Corinthians, Paul wrote:
[C]learly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart…. But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious…. For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious (3:3-11, emp. added).
What was “passing away”? The law written on the “tablets of stone.” What was the law “engraved on stones” that was given to Moses on Mt. Sinai? The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20). In this passage, Paul teaches the very opposite of what Seventh-Day Adventists teach—the Ten Commandments are not an eternal covenant.
The New Testament explicitly teaches that the old law has been abolished. Whether one is talking about the Ten Commandments or the ceremonial laws, the Law of Moses or the Law of God, all are considered the old law that no longer is in effect. Jesus Christ fulfilled that law and nailed it to the cross forever (Matthew 5:17-18; Colossians 2:13-17).”
https://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=531
Ms. CrowPie
Ok, fair enough. One question though. If the Old Law is no longer in effect, why bother with the 10 Commandments, at all? Would they not be nullified, by the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ? Please bear with me, on this:
Christ came to bring a new law, yes? Yet, from all accounts, he kept the Commandments (God’s Law). It seems contradictory for Jesus to keep the old law, that he was to nullify. If his aim was to end the law of Moses, then he certainly did his job, because even most Jews don’t keep with Mosaic law, anymore. Hell, I have a Jewish buddy who keeps his hair shorter than mine, has more tattoos, and tries to eat bacon, with every meal.
So I guess my question is Was Jesus’ intent to end God’s Law, or Moses’ Law?
Bill,
The following is a full list of the Law or Commandments that Jesus gave. If you give them close consideration you will find that they full encompass the Ten Commandments and much more. However, you will not find restrictions of food or personal attire or the like within them. Judgement is left only to He who reads the heart. Looks, clothes and wide flat noses no longer matter.
John 14:15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Repent
“From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matthew 4:17).
•Follow Me
“And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men” (Matthew 4:19).
•Rejoice
“Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you” (Matthew 5:11–12).
•Let Your Light Shine
“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 5:16).
•Honor God’s Law
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill” (Matthew 5:17).
*Note it says “Honor” not remain under.
•Be Reconciled
“Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee; leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift” (Matthew 5:23–25).
•Do Not Lust
“But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell” (Matthew 5:28–30).
•Keep Your Word
“Let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil” (Matthew 5:37).
•Go the Second Mile
“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away” (Matthew 5:38–42).
•Love Your Enemies
“But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even the publicans the same?” (Matthew 5:44–46).
•Be Perfect
“If ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect” (Matthew 5:46–48).
•Practice Secret Disciplines
“. . . When thou doest thine alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: that thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. . . . When thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. . . . When thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; that thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly” (Matthew 6:1–18).
•Lay Up Treasures
“Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also” (Matthew 6:19–21).
•Seek God’s Kingdom
“Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you” (Matthew 6:33).
•Judge Not
“Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?” (Matthew 7:1–3).
•Do Not Cast Pearls
“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you” (Matthew 7:6).
•Ask, Seek, Knock
“Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened” (Matthew 7:7–8).
•Do Unto Others
“Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets” (Matthew 7:12).
•Choose the Narrow Way
“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it” (Matthew 7:13–14).
•Beware of False Prophets
“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?” (Matthew 7:15–16).
•Pray for Laborers
“The harvest truly is plenteous, but the laborers are few; pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth laborers into his harvest” (Matthew 9:37–38).
•Be Wise as Serpents
“Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves” (Matthew 10:16).
•Fear Not
“Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matthew 10:28).
•Hear God’s Voice
“He that hath ears to hear, let him hear” (Matthew 11:15).
•Take My Yoke
“Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light” (Matthew 11:28–30).
•Honor Your Parents
“For God commanded, saying, Honor thy father and mother: and, he that curseth father or mother, let him die the death” (Matthew 15:4).
•Beware of Leaven
“Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees” (Matthew 16:6).
•Deny Yourself
“If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?” (Luke 9:23–25).
•Despise Not Little Ones
“Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 18:10).
•Go to Offenders
“Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican” (Matthew 18:15–17).
•Beware of Covetousness
“And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth” (Luke 12:15).
•Forgive Offenders
“Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven” (Matthew 18:21–22).
•Honor Marriage
“And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder” (Matthew 19:4–6).
•Be a Servant
“. . . Whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; and whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many” (Matthew 20:26–28).
•Be a House of Prayer
“It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer . . . ” (Matthew 21:13).
•Ask in Faith
“Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea: it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive” (Matthew 21:21–22).
•Bring In the Poor
“Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbors; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompense be made thee. But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: and thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:12–14).
•Render to Caesar
“Show me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s” (Matthew 22:19–21).
•Love the Lord
“Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment” (Matthew 22:37–38).
•Love Your Neighbor
“And the second [commandment] is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets” (Matthew 22:39–40).
•Await My Return
“Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh” (Matthew 24:42–44).
•Take, Eat, and Drink
“As they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins” (Matthew 26:26–28).
•Be Born Again
“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again” (John 3:5–7).
•Keep My Commandments
“If ye love me, keep my commandments” (John 14:15).
•Watch and Pray
“Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).
•Feed My Sheep
“So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jona, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jona, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep” (John 21:15–16).
•Baptize My Disciples
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matthew 28:19).
•Receive God’s Power
“And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high” (Luke 24:49).
•Make Disciples
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations . . . teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen” (Matthew 28:19–20).
Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
Bill,
As far as your question about “So I guess my question is Was Jesus’ intent to end God’s Law, or Moses’ Law?”
You have asked a great question. It’s both Gods Law and Christs Law as they are both the same (The father is the Son and the Son is the Father) and were both there at its making and both decided to end it. Moses only received the Law.
Many don’t believe in the God Head. (the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost) they believe it to be a heresy. However, scripture tells us plainly that the Father and Son are one and that the Son will send the Holy Ghost for our comfort.
Well then….. I do have some questions.
Matthew 5:28-30:
I can’t be the only one who thinks that this would be a great premise for a horror movie.
Matthew 5: 11-12:
I have to quote Bad Religion on this one…. From the song “Live Again-The Fall Of Man”
“The road is narrow, the horizon wide
And to say what’s waiting on the other side
Is so rewarding and the ultimate prize
But what good is something if you can’t have it until you die? ”
Matthew 5: 44-46
See that’s a tough one for me, as it is for most who claim to follow Scripture. This is the one time, where I find myself in agreement with those I usually despise most. I can let go of a grievance in two circumstances: If it’s so long ago, that it no longer matters, or if I’ve exacted reasonable retribution. The idea of turning the other cheek always bothered me. In my head, it makes one a punching bag, if one is willing to offer one’s assailant a target. I’m not talking about beating someone near to death for insulting me, but if I’m hurt, you can bet your arse that they’ll be hurting as much; if not a whole lot worse. It’s just my nature, and I think that it’s the nature of the human animal, as a species.
Matthew 6: 1-18
Now this one, I like. Worship your God, but don’t make a spectacle of it. Do it, in private. I wish more people thought like this. I always wondered how God benefited, from masses of people gathering in their “Sunday best”, to worship. It seems to me, that if he hears all prayers, why the need to concentrate them, all in one spot, all on one day? No one, even God could get through all those “Knee-mails”, in one morning.
Matthew 6:19–21:
I’m not sure quite how to take this one. Is Christ calling for wide-spread asceticism? I know that greed is frowned upon, so the lusting for possessions is prohibited. There is one lynch-pin to this…..
This reminds me of Matthew 19:21. What good am I to the poor, if I give away all I have? I can either give a large amount away once, or smaller amounts, many times. I’m being more effective in helping the poor, if I’m able to take care of myself.
Matthew 7:1-3:
This one is pretty self-explanatory. Don’t be a hypocrite. This is the best example of why I firmly believe that most Christians have completely lost touch with Christ, and ignore his most basic teachings and laws.
Matthew 7:6:
See above. Christ gave the world such great ideas, and he wasted the pearls on swine. Few actually follow the wisdom.
Matthew 10:16:
A very interesting choice of words, since the Devil appeared as a snake. I get what he’ s getting at, but the words themselves, are oddly chosen.
Matthew 7:15–16:
HOLY CRAP! Geir Smith really IS in the bible!
Matthew 11:15:
When he’s ready to talk, I’m always available.
Matthew 16:6:
I thought dietary restrictions were nullified, with the new law. I know that Jesus tended to speak in parables, so is “the leavened of the Pharisees and Sadducees” a symbol for something else? I’m not a big fan of Pita bread.
Luke 9:23–25:
This reads like the words of a revolutionary, and not in the Spiritual sense, either. He’s asking his followers to lay down their lives for him. I get that there’s the promise of heaven, but much like helping the poor, how can they spread the Word, if they’re dead?
Matthew 18:17:
“If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.”
This quote (I’m willing to bet) is the basis for ALL the wrong-doings of the Early Church. This one quote gives the Church (Which church, I don’t know. Jesus didn’t have one- he had a ministry) the authority to carry out their idea of Justice, with a clean conscience. I can’t accept that Jesus would say something that was that near-sighted. He had to know how weak-minded men would take that.
Matthew 18:21–22:
This goes back to the punching bag scenario. There’s only so much someone can take, before forgiveness is an impossibility. If he who offends is forgiven, and continues to offend, it is safe to presume that he will never change his ways. I understand that Christ doesn’t want us to hold grudges, but come on.. There has to be a limit, somewhere. Is 490 a hard limit?
AS for the rest, I get what they mean.
If Moses only received the Law from God, why would he presume to codify a ceremonial law? Wasn’t the 10 Commandments good enough? I can’t believe that the Israelites were totally without a societal structure and laws, prior to Moses coming down from Mt. Sinai; but I also can’t believe that every Israelite that followed Moses out of Egypt decided “Ok. He’s got those tablets from God, so let’s let him set our whole legal structure.” I don’t remember hearing of any dissenters, among the multitude.
I probably missed something.
Bill,
You have asked an entire years worth of wonderful questions. All deserve in depth answers.
Your not nearly the under study you claim to be.
Why thank you, Madam.
After a big enough disaster, some of the most powerful “kings” would be the appointed “czars” of the ten FEMA regions in the United States.
America is the Bible’s “Mystery Babylon” and Obama is its Bible-mocking, Islam-loving, Israel-hating leader. Daniel 12:9-10: “these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time… but those who have insight will understand.” Evidence points to the Antichrist’s identity being FULLY REVEALED to the ENTIRE world soon. Read: Antichrist 2016-2019: Mystery Babylon, Barack Obama & the Islamic Caliphate
David WOW are you in LALA land or what?
MY GOD I ACTUALLY SCANNED THIS FOR ABOUT TEN MINUTES
I actually read some of the posts WOW
See? This is why we cant’ have nice things. If this thread happened in person, there wouldn’t be a stick of furniture left in the room.
When you’re right, you’re right.
/christian-news/2015/10/the-word-jew-is-not-found-in-the-bible-and-therefore-represents-a-gross-mistranslation-2519572.html
This should help with the rest of the rooms LOL
Please forgive my free use of the word Jew in place of Israelite. It was not meant to be offensive to anyone, only descriptive.