| Online: | |
| Visits: | |
| Stories: |
What The New Testament Says About The Law Made Crystal Clear – HERE IT IS, IF YOU WANT TO KNOW
WHAT THE NEW TESTAMENT SAYS ABOUT THE LAW MADE CRYSTAL CLEAR – HERE IT IS, IF YOU WANT TO KNOW
Sermon on the Mount by Carl Bloch
In this article I have categorized what the New Testament says about the Law. I looked up all the main verses about the Law, arranged them into titled sections with only very brief clarifying comments, and put them under the headings. If you want to know what the New Testament says, here it is. This is not what I say; this is what the Bible says. If anyone wants to argue, they can argue with the Bible itself.
THE MORAL LAW IS WRITTEN IN THE CONSCIENCE AND EXISTED BEFORE MOSES
Romans 2: 14-15 NLT “Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.
They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.”
The intuitive knowledge of all that is right and wrong has been written in the conscience since the fall of man. (Intuitive means this knowledge is spontaneous and comes from the deepest part of our nature; it does not have to be learned, it is inborn.)
ATTEMPTS TO PUT THIS LAW IN WRITING
Code of Hammurabi stele. Louvre Museum, Paris
Attempts to codify the moral law have been made throughout history. The Code of Hammurabi may be the best known attempt before Moses.
Codify means: to attempt to write down and systematize the moral law that is written in the conscience.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS IS OUR CONSCIENCE LOOKING AT ITSELF IN A MIRROR
In The Ten Commandments the moral law is perfectly codified
THE LAW AGREES WITH OUR CONSCIENCE, IT TELLS US THAT THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH US. THE LAW WAS GIVEN, NOT TO SAVE, BUT TO SHOW THAT WE NEED TO BE SAVED
Romans 3: 19-23 NLT Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God. For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are. For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard.
Romans 4:15 NLT For the law always brings punishment on those who try to obey it…
Romans 5: 20 NLT God’s law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were
Romans 7:7 NLT Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin.
Romans 7: 10 NLT …I discovered that the law’s commands, which were supposed to bring life, brought spiritual death instead.
Romans 8: 3 NLT The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature.
1 Corinthians 15: 56 NLT For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power.
Galatians 3:10 NLT But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God’s Book of the Law.”
Galatians 3: 19 NLT Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins…
THE LAW COULD NOT SAVE ANYONE
Galatians 2: 21 NIV I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”
Acts 13: 39 Everyone who believes in him is declared right with God—something the law of Moses could never do.
Galatians 3: 21-23 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Galatians 3: 24 NASB Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Galatians 5: 4 NLT For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.
Hebrews 7: 19 NLT For the law never made anything perfect…
Statue by Michelangelo — in Basilica San Pietro in Vincoli, Rome
THE LORD JESUS FULFILLED THE LAW AND BROUGHT IT TO ITS CONCLUSION
Matthew 5; 17-20 KJV Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
“Fulfill” above means: “to complete, carry out to the full. It is also translated: COMPLETE, END, EXPIRE.” W. E. Vine
THE LORD JESUS FULFILLED AND BROUGHT TO CONCLUSION EVERY JOT AND TITTLE OF THE LAW, HERE ARE THE VERSES THAT PROVE THAT
Matthew 11:13 NKJV For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Luke 16: 16 NLT “Until John the Baptist, the law of Moses and the messages of the prophets were your guides. But now the Good News of the Kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is eager to get in.
Luke 24: 44 KJV And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
John 1: 17 KJV For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Romans 10: 4 NLT For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God.
Galatians 3: 19 NLT … But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised…
Galatians 4: 4-5 NIV But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.
Ephesians 2: 15 KJV (Christ) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Hebrews 7: 11-12 NLT So if the priesthood of Levi, on which the law was based, could have achieved the perfection God intended, why did God need to establish a different priesthood, with a priest in the order of Melchizedek instead of the order of Levi and Aaron? And if the priesthood is changed, the law must also be changed to permit it.
Hebrews 10: 1 NLT The old system under the law of Moses was only a shadow, a dim preview of the good things to come, not the good things themselves
RIGHTEOUSNESS COMES THROUGH FAITH AND NOT THE LAW.
Romans 4: 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Galatians 2: 16 NLT Yet we know that a person is made right with God by faith in Jesus Christ, not by obeying the law. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be made right with God because of our faith in Christ, not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be made right with God by obeying the law.”
Galatians 3: 11 NLT But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Philippians 3: 9 NLT …I no longer count on my own righteousness through obeying the law; rather, I become righteous through faith in Christ. For God’s way of making us right with himself depends on faith. But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.
Romans 4: 3-4 NLT For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.”
4:6 NLT So the promise is received by faith. It is given as a free gift. And we are all certain to receive it, whether or not we live according to the law of Moses, if we have faith like Abraham’s. For Abraham is the father of all who believe.
Romans 3:28 NLT So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.
Galatians 5: 18 NLT But when you are directed by the Spirit, you are not under obligation to the law of Moses.
1 Timothy 1: 6-9 TLB But these teachers have missed this whole idea and spend their time arguing and talking foolishness. They want to become famous as teachers of the laws of Moses when they haven’t the slightest idea what those laws really show us. Those laws are good when used as God intended. But they were not made for us, whom God has saved; they are for sinners who hate God
Paul Writing His Epistles, painting probably by Valentin de Boulogne, 17th century
CHRISTIANS WANT TO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OR PRECEPTS OF CHRIST NOT TO BE SAVED BUT BECAUSE THEY ARE SAVED BUT EVEN CHRISTIANS CANNOT FULLY KEEP THE LAW
Galatians 5: 17 The sinful nature wants to do evil, which is just the opposite of what the Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are the opposite of what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, so you are not free to carry out your good intentions.
Romans 7: 14-25 NLT So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can’t. I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. I love God’s law with all my heart. But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.
THE COMMANDMENTS JOHN REFERS TO ARE CHRIST’S TEACHING AND ARE THE SAME AS HIS WORD – IT IS NOT THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE OLD COVENANT – THIS IS OBVIOUS FROM THE PREPONDERANCE OF THE EVIDENCE ABOVE
1 John 2: 3-5 KJV And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
“Word” comes from logos – logos means: “a word or saying,” also means “an account which one gives by word of mouth” W. E. Vine
“His word–His word is one, and comprises His “commandments,” which are many” Jamieson, Fausset & Brown
“Commandments” – from the Greek word entole: “an order, command, charge, precept, injunction – that which is prescribed to one by reason of his office” W. E. Vine
THE WORD TRANSLATED “COMMANDMENTS” INCLUDES ANY PRECEPT WHETHER FROM THE FATHER, THE SON, OR THE APOSTLES
John 15: 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
Acts 1:2 KJV Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
1 Corinthians 14: 27 KJV If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4: 2 KJV For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus
2 Peter 3: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Savior:
CHRISTIANS HAVE ONLY ONE COMMAND – BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST
1 John 3: 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
SALVATION COMES FROM BELIEVING – FELLOWSHIP, JOY, AND ASSURANCE COMES FROM OBEDIENCE
FELLOWSHIP -John addresses this to Christians: “that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.” 1 John 1: 3-4
FELLOWSHIP – 1 John 2:24 TLB So keep on believing what you have been taught from the beginning. If you do, you will always be in close fellowship with both God the Father and his Son.
REMAIN IN LOVE – John 15: 10 NLT When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.
ASSURANCE – 1 John 2: 3 NLT And we can be sure that we know him if we obey his commandments.
(This would be another article for another day but Christians can commit any sin that any son of Adam can commit. Indeed, most of the Epistles were written to correct disobedience, some of it very serious. A Christian cannot live anyway they want to and get by with it. First there will be a lose of fellowship, assurance, effectiveness, and then sickness and even death if it is continued. Obedience has to do with victory, not salvation, if a person is truly born again.)
James 2: 12 So whatever you say or whatever you do, remember that you will be judged by the law that sets you free.
Follow me on Facebook. All my articles can be found there.http://www.facebook.com/people/@/michael.clinton.148
Mike Clinton, Hiawassee Ga. Feb. 9, 2014
This question keeps coming up. And I’m glad that it does, but I hope that everyone notices that when it does, it is almost NEVER me who brings it up. There is some meaning contained within that very fact which it is perhaps time to explore.
Mike quoted:
“Romans 4:15 NLT For the law always brings punishment on those who try to obey it…”
Why does the Law bring wrath on those who try to obey it? Because they failed to obey it rightly and completely:
Deuteronomy 28:15
But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of YHWH your Elohim, to observe to do all His Commandments and His Statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee and overtake thee…
So the curses and the wrath come as a result of a failure of the people, and not a failure of the Law, which is perfect:
Psalm 19:7
The Law (Torah) of YHWH is PERFECT, converting the soul: The Testimony of YHWH is sure, making wise the simple.
PERFECT = H8549 תּמים tâmı̂ym From H8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth: – without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole.
“Romans 7: 10 NLT …I discovered that the law’s commands, which were supposed to bring life, brought spiritual death instead.”
Why did the commandment bring death?
Romans 7:11
For SIN, taking occasion by the commandment, DECEIVED ME, and by it, slew me.
Wherein is the fault? Is the fault with the perfect Law, or is the fault with the sinner? The fault is with the sinner, in whom the sin is found.
“Romans 8: 3 NLT The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature.”
The Law of Moses was unable to save, not because of any defect inherent in the LAW itself, but because of a defect inherent in man.
“…and the law gives sin its power.”
The Law gives sin its power because the Law has been given by YHWH. YHWH intends for us to obey the Law. We are therefore obligated to the Law; to follow its precepts and reap the blessings, or to disobey its precepts, and reap the cursing. But it is written that we are incapable of sinless existence, and thus if we try to obey the Law, we will fail because we are imperfect.
“Galatians 3:10 NLT But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God’s Book of the Law.””
Therefore, if we offend in ANY part of the Law, no matter how miniscule, we are guilty of violating ALL of the Law:
James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
“THE LAW COULD NOT SAVE ANYONE”
“Galatians 2: 21 NIV I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!””
If we were capable of obeying the Law, there would have been no need for Messiah’s Sacrifice. Because we are found to be utterly incapable of perfect obedience to the perfect Law, then Messiah’s Sacrifice was absolutely indispensable to our plight, and without His Sacrifice we would all be doomed to cursing, destruction and death.
PROBLEM:
Mike has quoted from the NIV which slightly skews the meaning of the following verse:
“Acts 13: 39 Everyone who believes in him is declared right with God—something the law of Moses could never do.”
Here again is the same verse from the King James:
And by Him all that believe are justified from all things, from which YE COULD NOT BE JUSTIFIED by the Law of Moses.
The difference is that the NIV is placing the fault with the Law. But we know there is no fault with the Law. Rather, as is seen in the wording of the King James, the fault lies with ‘YE’ the sinful man, and not with the Law. Here again is the same verse from Young’s Literal Translation:
…and from all things from which YE WERE NOT ABLE in the Law of Moses to be declared righteous, in this one everyone who is believing is declared righteous
This distinction is of paramount importance. The fault is NEVER with the perfect Law. Rather, the fault was then and is now only and always with sinful and imperfect man.
“Galatians 5: 4 NLT For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.”
Yet more sloppy wording; this time from the NLT. Here again is the same verse more clearly-worded:
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you ARE JUSTIFIED by the Law; ye are fallen from grace.
Thus it should be clear that if we seek after our own perfect keeping of the Law, which is the only way to attain to justification under the Law, then we will end up in error and in failure because none of us are capable of keeping the perfect Law perfectly. Trying to make ourselves ‘right with God’ by Law keeping is only a benefit to us IF we are partakers in the Blood Sacrifice of Messiah. The NLT seems to rule out this possibility due to a poorly-worded rendering of the verse. Here again is the same verse in a word-for-word translation of the Greek from Scripture 4 All dot org:
YE WERE DOWN-UN-ACTED FROM THE ANOINTED WHO-ANY IN LAW ARE be-ING JUSTIFIED OF-THE grace YE-OUT-FALL.
Therefore, if we think we have justification in the Law, and we are seeking after our Law keeping to justify ourselves in the eyes of the Almighty, then we have fallen away from Messiah and have forfeited His Grace. It is VERY IMPORTANT to note the distinction here in the clearly-worded versions of the verse that Law keeping IS NOT being disparaged. Rather, Law keeping FOR THE WRONG REASONS is being derided as both ineffectual and as negating the benefits of Messiah’s Sacrifice on a personal level. This verse DOES NOT SAY not to keep the Law; a point which cannot be overemphasized.
“Hebrews 7: 19 NLT For the law never made anything perfect…”
Anti-Law Christianity thinks this verse, and verses of its kind, are the lynchpin of their argument and the coup de grâce (the killing stroke) against any argument that the Law should still be observed by us. But here it is in plain English: “The Law never made anything perfect.” I agree with this statement entirely. And Mike, I have seen you flatly state that you feel your opponents on this issue (like me) are not taking into account verses of this kind. Brother, there isn’t anything in Scripture I’m overlooking. ALL Scripture has been taken into account. The Law WAS NOT INTENDED to make anything perfect. Messiah was perfect even before He fulfilled the Law. The fact that the Law never made anything perfect, in no way diminishes anything from the perfect Law. Again, the flaws and the shortcomings are with us. The flaws and the shortcomings are not with the Law.
“THE LORD JESUS FULFILLED THE LAW AND BROUGHT IT TO ITS CONCLUSION”
This statement is only partially true, as we will see. Messiah FULFILLED the Law. He did not bring the Law to its conclusion.
“For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till ALL BE FULFILLED.”
Are you trying to equate Messiah fulfilling the Law with “ALL BE FULFILLED”? You can’t do that. They aren’t the same. This fact is most effectively and completely demonstrated merely by looking out of the nearest window. Is ALL-IN-ALL in the Most High? Has the New Jerusalem landed in our back yard? Have all of the prophecies been fulfilled to perfect completion? Has Messiah returned for His thousand year reign on Earth? No. None of these things have yet come to pass. Therefore, any argument that ALL has been FULFILLED is an argument which should be dismissed completely and entirely. All things HAVE NOT yet been fulfilled. Nor are these merely facts; these are more than simple facts. These truths are all AXIOMS. They cannot be reasonably disputed. And therefore, no jot or title could yet have fallen from the Law. Heaven and Earth still stand, brother. You yourself are the one who elsewhere accused your opponents in this matter of ignoring certain parts of Scripture to satisfy their arguments. Listen to the ENTIRE verse as it is written: “TILL Heaven and Earth PASS.” I didn’t put that in the verse. You didn’t put that in the verse. The Most High put it there. And Heaven and Earth have not passed. That should be the end of your argument right here, but we’ve both been to this point before many times. So let us proceed.
““Fulfill” above means: “to complete, carry out to the full. It is also translated: COMPLETE, END, EXPIRE.” W. E. Vine”
Right. But all has not been fulfilled.
As to END… what is ‘END’ in Greek?
Romans 10:4
For Christ is the END of the Law for righteousness to everyone that believeth.
END — G5056 τέλος TELOS From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a DEFINITE POINT OR GOAL); properly THE POINT AIMED AT as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], PURPOSE); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): – + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.
Did we all get that? Messiah is the DEFINITE POINT OR GOAL of the Law. Messiah is THE POINT AIMED AT of the Law. Messiah is the PURPOSE of the Law.
Messiah came to show us, amongst other things, what a living example of Law-keeping looked like. Messiah is the CULMINATION of the Law because the Law is FULFILLED in Him. Because His life and everything He did exemplified the entire code of conduct delivered to us in the Law, we say that Messiah is the END (TELOS) of the Law. END as in “A MEANS TO AN END.” Messiah is the END. The Law is the MEANS. The Law is the MEANS by which we are to BECOME like our Master. Without the Law, we CANNOT BECOME like our Master. We ourselves have not yet attained to the END of the Law. We need to obey the Law in order to do that. And we need to obey it perfectly. We can never achieve this end by suggesting that a stop has been put to our responsibility to obey the Law.
Therefore, Messiah fulfilled the Law, and He brought the Law to its FULLNESS in Himself, but the Law HAS NO conclusion while the Heavens and the Earth still stand. All has not been fulfilled. The Law has its End and Messiah is that End. This is NOT the same thing as saying that the Law has been finished, done away with, abrogated, terminated, abridged, modified, rendered defunct or obsolete, or otherwise made OF NONE EFFECT. Brothers – the Law stands. Just as the Scriptures state.
“THE LORD JESUS FULFILLED AND BROUGHT TO CONCLUSION EVERY JOT AND TITTLE OF THE LAW, HERE ARE THE VERSES THAT PROVE THAT”
Let’s just see about that.
“Matthew 11:13 NKJV For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”
So, the prophecies were until John. And AFTER JOHN, there was no more prophecy and no more Law. OOPS. Did I just add to the written Word? Yes I did. But so did you Mike, since that’s clearly what you are insinuating by pointing to that verse in another ‘The Law Is No More’ article. Let’s keep it simple. Are there any prophecies in Scripture which apply to a time AFTER John? Of course there are. I doubt ANYONE would deny that fact. So too with the Law. The prophecies extend beyond the time of John, just like the Law does. Therefore, the verse cannot be saying what you are suggesting that it says.
“Luke 16: 16 NLT “Until John the Baptist, the law of Moses and the messages of the prophets were your guides. But now the Good News of the Kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is eager to get in.”
Right. Prior to the Good News, there was no Blood Sacrifice of Messiah with which to avail ourselves. Since that time however, we have Messiah’s Sacrifice of atonement for sin to cover our SHORTCOMINGS wherein we have violated the Law. There is nothing in the above verse which tells us the Law has been abrogated.
“Luke 24: 44 KJV And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.”
There is nothing included in this above verse suggesting that the Law has been abrogated.
“John 1: 17 KJV For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
The Grace and Justification we could not achieve through our imperfect keeping of the Law of Moses, is attainable to us now because of the Truth, who came in the flesh and died as a perfect Sacrifice for sin to cover for our shortcomings. There is nothing included in the above verse suggesting that the Law has been abrogated.
“Galatians 3: 19 NLT … But the law was designed to last ONLY UNTIL the coming of the child who was promised…” (emphasis added)
That is an OUTRIGHT perversion of the intended meaning of this verse. There are many reasons why I abhor the NLT. I would outlaw it if I could, just like the NIV. I hate it with a passion. If any of us are reading this version, we had better be checking the verses against other, more reputable, translations – but more importantly, we MUST check the verses against the Greek Manuscripts.
Galatians 3:19 King James Version
Wherefore then (serveth) the Law? It was added because of transgressions, TILL THE SEED SHOULD COME to whom the promise was made…
THUS – the Law was given because of transgression until He should come. Then He came. Then His Sacrifice for our transgressions provided for us what nothing else could. There is nothing in the KJV, or in Young’s Literal, or in Scripture 4 All, or in ANY of the Greek Manuscripts saying what the NLT tells us the verse says. There is NOTHING about “designed to last ONLY UNTIL”. This is a fabrication at the hands of the NLT Scribes. The Scribes are doing the same things to us today that they were doing in the time of Messiah. Beware the Scribes. And beware the NLT and the NIV.
The following verse is quoted by Mike from the KJV instead of the NLT:
“Ephesians 2: 15 KJV (Christ) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;”
Let’s look at it in Young’s as well:
the enmity in his flesh, the law of the commands in ordinances having done away, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace,
Confused? That’s what happens when dirty doctrine slips through the Scribe’s pen into the translation. We need a third opinion. Scripture 4 All:
The enmity in the flesh of Him the Law of the precepts in decrees nullifying that the two should be creating in Himself one new man making peace.
So the question is: WHAT IS BENG NULLIFIED? Is the Law being nullified in this verse? Or is it the ENMITY IN THE FLESH which is being abolished and done away with. According to Scripture 4 All and Young’s, and according to the Greek Manuscripts, it is the ENMITY which is being done away with. It is NOT the Law which is being done away with. This verse is far too important to get wrong, brothers. Examine this verse in every source of reference you can find, and study it out completely in the Greek with the concordances and the lexicons.
From Hebrews 7:12 NLT
“And if the priesthood is changed, the law must also be changed to permit it.”
Here we have: “must be CHANGED”
CHANGED — G3331 μετάθεσις metathesis From G3346; transposition, that is, transferral (to heaven), disestablishment (of a law): – change, removing, translation.
This is not the same thing as: “till all things PASS”
PASS — G3928 παρέρχομαι parerchomai From G3844 and G2064; to come near or aside, that is, to approach (arrive), go by (or away), (figuratively) perish or neglect, (causatively) avert: – come (forth), go, pass (away, by, over), past, transgress.
Can there be a change in the Law? Clearly there can be. Moses was permitted to institute a bill of divorcement when YHWH would have preferred NO divorce. Is a change in the Law commensurate with the outright termination of the Law? That’s a rhetorical question.
“Hebrews 10: 1 NLT The old system under the law of Moses was only a shadow, a dim preview of the good things to come, not the good things themselves”
And who would argue with the meaning of this verse? Not I. It certainly does not say anything about the termination or the abrogation of the Law though, does it. No. It does not.
“RIGHTEOUSNESS COMES THROUGH FAITH AND NOT THE LAW.”
Here is another one of those very important distinctions which need to be made. To argue that the Law still stands to this day, in force and in full effect, is NOT to give the lie to the above statement by Mike. Scripture has made it very clear that RIGHTEOUSNESS does not come to us though the Law or through our imperfect keeping of it. Rather, righteousness comes to us because of our faith and belief in the efficacy of Messiah’s Blood Sacrifice for our sin, and our belief and faith in Messiah Himself, our Salvation.
“…BUT EVEN CHRISTIANS CANNOT FULLY KEEP THE LAW”
No man, woman or child, save for Messiah Himself, has ever been able to fully and perfectly keep the Law. No one can. Therefore, we needed a measure whereby something or Someone could offer an atonement for the deficit left owing WHEN WE TRY TO KEEP the Law. There it is. Messiah is there to cover the shortcoming for us; He picks up the slack wherein we have (and will) fall short of the mark of perfect observance of the Law. He pays the bill owed by us because of our sin. He left that bill nailed to the cross stamped “PAID IN FULL”. How is that the same thing as saying we are nowhere required to TRY OUR VERY BEST to keep the Law? We are not absolved from TRYING to obey each and every Precept, Statute and Ordinance of the Law. We are ordered to OBEY the Commandments brothers. We are NOWHERE told in Scripture that we are no longer beholden to the Commandments. Because we are weak, and because we are fallen, we need help in our efforts to obey. Messiah is our Help.
“THE COMMANDMENTS JOHN REFERS TO ARE CHRIST’S TEACHING AND ARE THE SAME AS HIS WORD – IT IS NOT THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE OLD COVENANT – THIS IS OBVIOUS FROM THE PREPONDERANCE OF THE EVIDENCE ABOVE”
The preponderance of the ‘evidence above’ has been flatly refuted.
Mike. Brother. It is a terrible error to continue teaching men to DISREGARD the Law; either in whole or in part:
Matthew 5:19
WHOSOEVER THEREFORE SHALL BREAK one of these least commandments, and shall TEACH MEN SO, he shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven.
You want Scripture? There it is. Here’s another:
1 Timothy 1:7
From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; DESIRING to be teachers of the Law; UNDERSTANDING NEITHER WHAT THEY SAY, NOR WHEREOF THEY AFFIRM…
(Is this verse arguing against the continuance of the Law? Let us proceed and see):
Verses 8 – 11
BUT WE KNOW THAT THE LAW IS GOOD, if a man USE IT LAWFULLY;
Knowing this, that THE LAW IS NOT MADE FOR A RIGHTEOUS MAN…
(Are we righteous men? NO. We are NOT righteous men. There is NONE righteous. No. Not one. Messiah ALONE was righteous. We are not.)
…but for the LAWLESS and the DISOBEDIENT (that would be us), for the impious and for sinners (again, us), for unholy and profane (us and us), for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
For whoremongers, for sodomites, for enslavers of men, for liars, for perjurers, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
According to the glorious Gospel of the blessed Elohim, which was committed to my trust.
So there it is. We need the Law MORE today, now, than at any other time in the history of man. The Law is MORE pertinent now – not less so. When we involve ourselves in the examination of the question put before us today – whether or not the Law ABIDES – we are obligated to turn every stone and chase down every lead, especially in light of the fact that our Father has given us so many tools in these last days. Everything we need in order to gain a right understanding of this question has been given to us. We are completely WITHOUT EXCUSE if we fail to arrive at the correct answer of this most fundamental, essential and crucial question – a question which lies at the very heart of who we are, who Messiah is, and who our Father is.
This is not a question we are permitted to get wrong. And judging by the fact that it comes up as often as it does, and from the same general quarters, I know in my heart that something is driving those among us who believe that the Law has been ended to continue to revisit this question over and over. Are you really trying to convince everyone else Mike? Or are you trying to convince yourself.
My brothers – with every jot and title in my being, the answer is clear…
The Law abides.
Long comment Beef. The difference between yours and mine: yours is mostly commentary, mine is mostly scripture. I can post just scripture alone to get my point across.
I do not tell anyone to disobey the law Beef, I tell them about the One who delivered us from the very curse you have described and gives us the expulsive power of a new affection.
“I can post just scripture alone to get my point across.”
Do you think I can’t? Was I answering the Bible or was I answering an article you wrote.
The point in the commentary is that the many verses you quote do not convey the message you are suggesting they convey.
If you suggest to anyone that they are not beholden to the Law, then you are advocating for violation of an age-abiding precept.
I wonder if you even read what I wrote. You leave me with the impression that you have not. That would be unwise, considering that it was written with you foremost in mind. I don’t aim to waste four hours of my time composing a rebuttal to an argument unless my message has been well thought through. Your dismissiveness of my contribution is exasperating, if only for the reason that you posted your repudiation much too hastily. You’ve barely had time to read what I wrote (if in fact you did read it), much less think about it.
Certain of your recent comments make it sound like you think you’re the only one around here with a strong familiarity with the Scriptures.
Beef, I have my hands full sometimes when I post. I try to read all the comments that I get. I have work that I have to do. We are preparing for a winter storm here. I was up till 3AM putting this together and worked on it this morning. I scanned through your comment. I apologize that you think I was dismissive of your comment. No, I respect your opinion.
It would be helpful if you could take a section at a time to comment on. It would not overwhelm me when I am answering other comments too.
I don’t think I am the only one who knows the scripture. I have spent the last few years doing nothing but go through the Bible. I do know what I read and hear.
Mike,
There is no burning rush to address anything I post here. About a week ago, I saw you mention that this article was coming. I began preparing for it then, and I have been ready and waiting to compose my response. I’ve actually been looking forward to it.
Typically, when you and I get to dancing in circles around the ring whenever this topic comes up, you stick a few jabs and then you duck out for the locker room, and that’s the end of it. Sometimes the topic of the Law spontaneously erupts in the comment section of an article which treats of other material, and at times like that I am hesitant to pursue the issue too far. Here, you have written another article wherein the Law itself is the topic, so what better place is there for us to hammer out some of these specifics? One of us needs to be corrected on this subject, and if it’s me, then I would prefer to get to the heart of the matter sooner rather than later. If it’s you, what better time than the present?
A good way for us to proceed, in my opinion, would be if you are willing to pick one or two objections you have to something specific I have written in my rebuttal. This way we can narrow down the focus of the issue to a more manageable zone. I hope you will take the time to carefully read what I wrote, since I’m not asking anything more than you did when you posted your article. You can see that I carefully read everything you wrote, because I addressed your article point-by-point. Furthermore, I quoted eighteen verses in my reply, so you charge that my rebuttal is comprised mainly of commentary doesn’t really pass muster.
Take your time brother. Batten down the hatches. Finish stripping or staining whatever antiques presently lay claim to your attention. We’re running low on time in the overall scheme of things, but I’ll bet we have at least a few days left before the proverbial poop begins to splatter on the motorized oscillating ventilation device.
Also – I know how irritating it must be to have the fruits of your labor posted here for only a few short hours before BEEF blows through and pastes up a 99 page thesis on the front door of your ‘chapel’. That’s got to be annoying as hell. I know it would piss me off if the tables were turned. But my brother, were you really expecting anything else? You had to know what was coming the moment you decided to take this latest shot at closing the door on the question of the Law.
I’m always ready to consider I might be wrong – most of all when I’m certain I’m right. In this case, I would ask you to really flesh out the situation in your mind and imagine what the case would be, and what it would bring, if you have managed to land squarely in the wrong camp on this issue.
At your leisure brother. Today, tomorrow, the next day… come what may.
Let us push this puppy around the track a few times and see if we can’t really wrangle some perspective out of our mental arsenals. The effort is always worth it, even if we’re just training for defending our arguments at a later date. We only get better at this as we go.
Let’s git ‘er done, brother.
“I don’t aim to waste four hours of my time composing a rebuttal to an argument unless my message has been well thought through.”
BEEF, how about turning your post into an article itself? I think the nuances you point out are things all believers need to consider on this important but under discussed topic (under discussed with respect to the depths of the discussions). Clearly, this topic is a fine-balancing act. The one thing that really stands out for me on this topic is the fact that the law itself is part of or tied to this present heavens and earth and will not be done away with until the new heavens and new earth are created.
Okay Beef, I will get back to you on it.
I am not running from anything. I don’t exit because of the topic.
I am not the least annoyed by your comment. I knew you would respond to this after all you told me you debated this topic with the guy I shared an article from about the new Freedom Tower for two whole weeks.
I am not kidding when I say I listen and read the Bible constantly. I know what I hear and read.
In this article I just put together what my impression is of what I have read and seen.
I carefully read the first part of your rebuttal and we are really not that far apart. You basically agree with what I said in the article. You misunderstand me if you infer that I think the Law is bad, on the contrary I think it is perfect and I said so. The problem is with us as you and I both agree. It is a mirror to show us what we are.
I used the versions I did in an attempt to make this as plain and simple as I could for everyone who reads it. I had no intention of skewing anything. I wanted and tried to make it crystal clear. Something that is not easy for a country refinisher with no education who cannot even type.
“No man, woman or child, save for Messiah Himself, has ever been able to fully and perfectly keep the Law. No one can. Therefore, we needed a measure whereby something or Someone could offer an atonement for the deficit left owing WHEN WE TRY TO KEEP the Law. There it is. Messiah is there to cover the shortcoming for us; He picks up the slack wherein we have (and will) fall short of the mark of perfect observance of the Law. He pays the bill owed by us because of our sin. He left that bill nailed to the cross stamped “PAID IN FULL”. How is that the same thing as saying we are nowhere required to TRY OUR VERY BEST to keep the Law? We are not absolved from TRYING to obey each and every Precept, Statute and Ordinance of the Law. We are ordered to OBEY the Commandments brothers.”
Brother Beef, those are some powerful words of wisdom.
Mike, your heart is in the right place but your mind is fixated on the wrong idea. Telling people to disregard the Law – our guidebook for repentance – is a very dangerous thing to do. I hope the information that has been presented to you awakens you to the possibility of your err.
The very contradiction you two are discussing is in part the reason I have thrown the whole greco-roman part out as it was obviously written in order to fool the people into getting rid of the very laws that protected them from usury and guaranteed that every family would keep its land forever and if for some reason the land was sold, it would have to be returned every 50 years on the year of jubilee I think it is.
Lo and behold, the lawless world now where almost every person and nation is heavily in debt and most of the land in the industrialized world is owned by banks, corporations or the government. Maybe we should call them the 1 percent?
Pretty easy to figure out who wrote the greek part and why if you ask me.
goodbees wrote:
“Pretty easy to figure out who wrote the greek part and why if you ask me.”
There’s nothing easy about figuring out any part of the Greek ‘part’. That is the point of this exercise. It is my contention that, when rightly understood, the entire New Testament does nothing to abridge or abrogate the Old Testament.
Just as the Apostle Paul plainly wrote, a follow-on contract does not disannul the previous contract; the follow-on contract can only ADD to the previous contract. The previous contract remains perpetually in effect.
Matthew 5; 17-20 KJV Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
“Fulfill” above means: “to complete, carry out to the full. It is also translated: COMPLETE, END, EXPIRE.” W. E. Vine
Evil Clinton finds a fellow evil man to back their evil false christ doctrine the many anti-Christs spread in the world (1 John 2:18).
Christ said: I DID NOT COME TO DO AWAY WITH THE LAW
Christ said: HE FULFILLED THE LAW
Now since Christ said, I DID NOT COME TO DO AWAY WITH THE LAW
Fullfillment of the law CANNOT MEAN HE DID AWAY WITH THE LAW
To say fulfillment of the law meant Christ caused the law to expire is TO CALL CHRIST A LIAR!
Children of Hell abound in the world, the world gets darker and darker as the workers of iniquity abound, and among the workers of lawlessness are those who say the Lord is Christ:
Matthew 24:12 Because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold
AND AMONG THE WORKERS OF LAWLESSNESS ARE THOSE WHO SAY, Lord, Lord we did many wonderful works in your name (Matthew 7:22-23).
Church altars are spread throughout the world the most ever in history and the world gets darker.
John 4:20-24 There are only two altars of God on earth and both are altars of the Jews
Christ never gave Gentiles altar that are altars of God. It was Jew/Hebrew of Satan Pharisee Paul who gave Gentiles altars and said they are altars of God and did so FOR THE LOVE OF MONEY:
Romans 15:27 I taught the Gentiles it is their duty to give us money because we bring them spiritual teaching
The pew sitters put their money in the church collection plates. The diocese pays the overhead to run the churches and the remainder is profit to be invested with bankers and investment firms to maximize the wealth of the dioceses. All churches are founded solely on the doctrine of Pharisee Paul. Men of the 325 A.D. Council of Nicea with Roman Emperor Constantine presiding took Pharisees writings (gospel of Paul, Mark, Luke, James, Jude, 1 & 2 Peter), placed them with Christ’s doctrine and writings of God’s prophets and declared ALL IS THE WORD OF GOD, the first of four bibles.
THE RIDER ON THE WHITE HORSE rides to conquer and conquering but what does the white bring, truth purity liberty – SWORD
And Constantine conquered and attempted to conquer in the name of Christianity. The power of the four horsemen is limited to 25% of the world. They are not the judgment. White color signifies truth, purity and Christianity outwardly is as truth, purity but in reality is evil:
2 Cor. 10:6 BE READY TO REVENGE ALL DISOBEDIENCE
ROMANS 15:18 I SHALL MAKE THE GENTILES OBEDIENT IN WORD AND DEED
The men and women who go to seminary school are well-versed in Paul’s doctrine, and they are twice the children of Hell than their master whose doctrine they adopted:
Matthew 23:15, Acts 23:6, 26:5, Philippians 3:5 wow and people believe upon Paul’s doctrine merely because of a book cover titled “bible”! Christ’s gospel stood apart not being under any one cover until 325 A.D. Council of Nicea!
The 5th seal souls ask God: when does judgment begin. God answers: when the complete number of your brethren (Jews aka Hebrews) and fellow servants (Gentile believers on Christ) have been killed as you were for giving the testimony of God. (Rev. 6:9-11).
The evil Christians converts to Pharisee Paul’s gospel preach ‘repent or wrath’. Christ said John the Baptist took over from the law and the prophets, took over from ‘repent or wrath’ (Matthew 11:13).
REV. 22:11 LET HIM THAT IS FILTHY BE FILTHY STILL AND LET HIM THAT IS UNJUST BE UNJUST STILL
Matthew 3:2, 4:17, 10:7 REPENT BECAUSE THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS COMING
God’s judgment to come is for the reason stated in Rev. 6:9-11 and ends with the return of Christ to reign on earth
For centuries the Roman Catholic church and practiced by its harlots of the Protestant Reformation (Rev. 17:5) is REPENT OR WRATH and they are liars and do so to generate a stampede into their churches. Modern days, a lot do so to sell books, videos, lectures – Steve Quayle, Dr. Deagle, Tom Horn, Lynn Leheaz, Pat Robertson, the list of children of Hell is lengthy, the converts to the false christ of the false apostle Pharisee Paul.
Beef, I thought we agreed to do a section at a time.
It would be pointless to go over this again unless you have something more compelling than you have presented so far.
Have you ever used Expositors Greek Testament? You have to go through it a word at a time. They are in the same order as an Interlinear. I looked at every word.
Mike,
I’m quite certain you intended to post the above reply to our ongoing conversation further down on this page. I have posted my response below.
For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward Hebrews 2
Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. Acts7
But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Hebrews 1
If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. Hebrews7
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Romans 2
What did the Yahusha say about BEWARE THE TEACHINGS (DOCTRINE OF THE PHARISEE), so why do you go to the Pharisee Paul when you were WARNED OVER AND OVER.
Pauls lies and say the law was a curse, but wait HE DIED FOR US. HE FULFILLED IT BECAUSE YOU BREAK THE LAW AND YOU DIE. NOW YOU DONT DIE.
Pharisee paul infiltraited the movement. Beside why would Yahusha say “BEWARE” THEN A COUPLE OF MONTHS LATER SHOW PAUL ANYTHING. Beside Paul LIES about his conversion everytime he tells someone. HOW CAN YOU TRUST THAT!
Pauls words would line up with Yahusha words not counterdict them.
If the people that claim to be his WOULD KNOW THIS IF THEY WERE CALLED BY HIS NAME.
Jeremiah 8:8 PEN OF THE SCRIBES WRITE FALSELY AND HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF.
Can you say positively 100 percent that Yahusha came to Paul? Because their has been a lot of Popes that make the same claim.
Yahusha came to his own and they rejected him. Then he told us everything AND SHOWED US THE WAY AND TOLD US THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH WILL LEAD US TO ALL TRUTHS, WE NEVER NEEDED PAUL. Paul is the SELF PROCLAIMED 13 APOSTLE. Matthias was named to be the 12th (Judas place) Acts says. THATS WHY THE ILLUMINATI NUMBER IS 13.
Yahusha tells you the Pharisee’s are the children of the father of lies. PERIOD.
Seems to me you don’t understand until HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY MEANS. Maybe this will help you, xains believe it’s the end, SO ARE YOU PRAYING LIKE HE SAID “PRAY THAT IT DONT HAPPEN ON THE SABBATH DAY. I already know the answer.
Mike,
I really enjoyed your article. Don’t get too caught up arguing with Judaizers like BEEF SUPREME, they have been around for two millennia and have caused many people to fall from Grace and once again become slaves to the ministry of death (the law) and the defeat and condemnation that goes with it. The truth is, if we are in Christ, we share in His victory over sin, and have also fulfilled the law perfectly because He has! The law was supposed to produce righteousness and since we are in Christ, we have eternal righteousness (eternal means can’t be added to or taken away from), thus we are free from the Law because no amount of following it can add to our righteousness and no amount of transgressing it can take away our righteousness. Keep on preaching the good news of Grace bro!
YO DOPE CLINTON, following your lying Pharisee false apostle who says on the one hand:
Romans 2: 14-15 NLT “Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.
ALSO SAYS
Colossians 2:14 Christ nailed to the cross the handwriting of ordinances that was against us
SO THE LAW IS ALREADY WRITTEN ON GENTILE HEARTS
and that Law is AGAINST THEM
Psycho clinton twice the child of Hell than his moron master anti-Christ Pharisee Paul
Matthew 23:15 Pharisees are children of Hell and their converts are twice the children of Hell
Acts 23:6 I AM A PHARISEE and the SON OF A PHARISEE
Acts 26:5 I live my life as a PHARISEE
Philippians 3:5 I AM A PHARISEE
DOPE CHILD OF HELL CLINTON WRITES:
Matthew 5; 17-20 KJV Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
“Fulfill” above means: “to complete, carry out to the full. It is also translated: COMPLETE, END, EXPIRE.” W. E. Vine
SO WHILE QUOTING CHRIST SAYING HE DID NOT COME TO DO AWAY WITH THE LAW, he then quotes another child of Hell who says YES HE DID DO AWAY WITH THE LAW, COMPLETED, ENDED AND CAUSED THE LAW TO EXPIRE
Total moron children of Hell double speakers, their minds on are deceit, they are lovers of lies who have their place in Hell (Rev. 22:15)
REVELATION 22:14 BLESSED ARE THOSE WHO DO GOD’S COMMANDMENTS
Clinton is a good example of a blind child of Hell follower of the blind child of Hell false apostle Paul and Christ speaks of the false christ followers of Paul’s gospel:
Matthew 7:22-23 MANY shall say to me in that day, Lord, Lord we did many wonderful works in your name … and I will tell them I NEVER KNEW YOU, DEPART FROM ME workers of lawlessness
CHILD OF HELL CLINTON why don’t you address what exactly is that new law your master says takes over from God’s commandments (aka Moses’ law)?
ROMANS 8:2 THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT IN THE LIFE OF JESUS CHRIST freed me from the law of sin and death
so moron Cilnton, please explain what is the ‘law of the spirit in the life of Jesus Christ’
AND ALSO IDIOT, you moron Pharisee Paul converts are under Moses’ law according to your greedy master Pharisee :
Deuteronomy 25:4 Do not muzzle an ox when it is threshing grain
1 Timothy 5:16-18 Take care of your own widows and do not ask for church funds to take care of them. Now obey Moses’ command and pay your church rulers well
1 Cor. 9:9-11 You think God cares about oxen? That command of Moses is for us church rulers, now pay your church rulers well
EVIL EVIL MIKE CLINTON Christ says you will go to Hell for having converted to Pharisee doctrine you dog worker of lawlessness YOU ANTI-CHRIST
1 John 2:18 You have heard that the anti-Christ shall come and now there are many anti-Christs
PHARISEE PAUL IS THE ANTI-CHRIST who presented his false christ to the world accompanied by great signs and wonders (Romans 15:19, Matthew 24:24)
Hey Mighty Mouth,
What are you doing over here hiding when you’ve been challenged to answer a direct question on your own board?
Have you no answer?
Of course you have no answer. That’s why you’re over here piping your windbag instead of where you should be.
You can stop wondering why no one reads a single word you post, other than the first line to get a laugh at your amusing insults.
Get back in your cage.
INSULTS TO THE EVIL PEOPLE, evil beesupreme. Evil people are insulted by truth!
MATTHEW 15:12 Christ’s disciples said to him, did you know you offended the Pharisees by your sayings
MATTHEW 15:13 PHARISEES ARE PLANTS NOT PLANTED BY THE FATHER THAT SHALL BE ROOTED UP
That is your master and you too and all of his followers shall be rooted up, plants not planted by the Father:
MATTHEW 23:15 PHARISEES ARE CHILDREN OF HELL and THEIR CONVERTS ARE TWICE THE CHILDREN OF HELL
Acts 23:6 I AM A PHARISEE AND THE SON OF A PHARISEE
Acts 26:5 I LIVE MY LIFE AS A PHARISEE
Philippians 3:5 I AM A PHARISEE OF THE TRIBE OF BENJAMIN
THE QUESTION OF JEW/HEBREW was answered:
GALATIANS 2:15 WE ARE JEWS BY NATURE and not sinners of the Gentiles
The Christian’s master false apostle Pharisee Paul says elsewhere:
ROMANS 7:25 I SERVE SIN IN MY FLESH
He is a Jew by nature and not a sinner of the Gentile, but then he serves sin in his flesh. THE SCHIZOID LYING BY NATURE PHARISEE just a total nut job and his followers are even more psychotic morons. Deceived evil people who Christ says to them I NEVER KNEW YOU (Matthew 7:22-23)
Pharisee Paul says he is a JEW
PHILIPPIANS 3:5 I AM A PHARISEE … A HEBREW OF HEBREWS
He is a Jew. He is a Hebrew. He is a Pharisee
JEW AND HEBREW ARE SAME, interchangeable term meaning THE DESCENDANTS OF JACOB who was named ISRAEL by God
GENESIS 35:10 GOD SAID YOUR NAME IS JACOB BUT NOW YOUR NAME IS ISRAEL
EZEKIEL 37:15-22 GOD SAYS ISRAEL WILL NO LONGER BE DIVIDED INTO TWO NATIONS, TWO KINGDOMS
House of Judah, House of Israel were divided but shall be one again living in Israel when the Lord returns to reign on earth. They are descendants of ISRAEL – JACOB Genesis 35:10
“INSULTS TO THE EVIL PEOPLE, evil beesupreme. Evil people are insulted by truth!”
There’s the first line. That’s as much as gets read. Ever.
When I want Scripture I read my Bible.
Listen fast, Mighty Mouth. Your enemies are not insulted by truth. You are an alien to the truth. You are an alien to sound teaching. You are an alien to the Gospel message. You are an alien to civility. You are an alien to decency.
You are an alien to Messiah.
Your master is your own menacing mind.
When I told you to get back in your cage, I wasn’t kidding.
For once i concur with the Beef. Now again I wish you people will do some serious research with NAMES of GOD. His name is Holy and is not to be decided by humans.. IE Immanuel, Jesus and christ messiah teacher yahwe or yashuah or whatever… even AMEN seek and ye shall find. If one places so much importance upon an name like yall do, dont you think the one you are trying to call into existence cares what hes called by? Do not be decieved, after all I as a human dont answer to bastard or (You get the point)..Cross reference your book(bible) with others from alll avenues. I see alot of people using greek definitions and hebrew etc.. to justify their arguements, so why stop there.. History is alot older than 1500 BC… IE summerian, Egyptian, etc… do not discount what you havent researched your OWN SELF. Do not trust ANYONE is my belief, I go out and get my answers myself as i can only base MY decisions on ME and cannot blame anyone in Judgement but ME.. Peace
Spoken like a true follow of Osiris (Nimrod).
Mike,
By placing pictures in your articles, as you normally do, of what is supposedly Jesus Christ clearly demonstrates your disregard and as I have experienced in the past, your complete abhorrence for the Perfect Holy Law of God. A man that claims great knowledge of the Word of God such as yourself knows full well it is a transgression of the Commandments to make an image depicting anything on earth or in heaven that is an object for worship: it is an abomination to paint, draw, print, sculpt etc an image of Jesus Christ which you blatantly do over and over.
When you sent me the little piece on Mr and Mrs Law and Mr Grace I knew where the Law stood in your mind. In the Second Resurrection you are going to get the shock of your life.
Look up the article I wrote a month or so back and read the one on was the Law and sin nailed to the cross. The only thing nailed to the Stake is Jesus Christ and all the debt of our sins laid upon Him.
When Beef Supreme quoted you as saying “for the Law always brings punishment on those who try to obey it” That is a absolute LIE. The Law does not punish at all it only points out what Sin is, it codifies sin. God the Father controls when punishment for sin will be carried out. And that punishment is coming on earth soon, over 6 billion are going to die.
Yeah Mike! Don’t you know it is an abomination to use an image of Jesus Christ—I would NEVER do such a …..ummmm….errrrr……does anyone know how to change their avatar
Seriously, TS. I don’t think Mike is bowing down to these pictures in his articles and making false idols of them. Nor do I bown down and worship my avatar. Can’t we discuss real topics of concern rather than such foolish abomination accusations
BTW, Jesus was nailed to a cross, not a stake.
Hello my friend am123. It’s always good to see your friendly avatar. Looks like I have my work cut out for me again. It is important to hammer this out though, as they say “iron sharpens iron” and I like mine sharp.
AM123
#4716 “stauros” A stake or post (as set up right) i.e. (spec)a pole or cross (as and instrument of capital punishment) The base word this comes from is 2476 “histemi” a prol. form of a prim. “Stao” which means to stand.
Even Mike will tell you the cross is a pagan symbol and AM123, I abhor any thing that is from the catholic church and the cross is a big one for them as are idols. The catholic’s paint, draw, sculpt and make idols of everything. They changed the name to icon but they are still idols and are an abomination to God. Whether you bow down or not the Commandment is to not make them, your avatar is a transgression of the Commandment.
I posted an article that almost no one read on if the Law was nailed to the stake, I will put it up again, sorry it is long but this subject is very important.
Mike thinks God gave man a harsh law that was a huge burden, I am sure glad Mike and many other think the Commandment that says not to murder is harsh and the Law to not commit adultery is also. They are just too harsh every one wants to fornicate and then shoot someone right? And if they had to be obeyed no one would go to heaven. P.s. no one is going to heaven. Earth is what the meek are given.
Omega, I quoted Matthew 5: 17-20 and followed it, not with commentary but with scripture. How can taking scripture by category be considered twisting it?
I have had folks say that I quoted a verse out of context when all I did was reply with just a verse. This is just a way of saying that the disagree with the verse but they can’t say that, that would give it away.
“This is just a way of saying that the disagree with the verse but they can’t say that, that would give it away.”
Mike,
This boils down to basic hermeneutics:
Once a topic is tabled for debate, and you personally have announced your intention to advocate for one side of the argument over another, it can then be supposed that henceforth any verse you table for consideration is done so in the furtherance of your argument. You may table a single verse from Scripture, and nothing more. But when you do, if the ‘opposing’ side voices an objection that you have taken the verse out of context, that is by no means the same thing as disagreeing with the verse itself.
If the verse you have tabled does not support the argument you are making, then the objection is fair. The objection then needs to be explained. Often, this explanation is accompanied by the use of commentary. And since we are having a debate about a fundamental aspect of Scripture Teaching, I can’t imagine us doing it without resorting to various explanations and/or commentary. You are the only one here who repeatedly makes the objection that commentary is not on a level with Scripture – an objection I doubt needs to be voiced because in present company, it goes without saying.
Mike, I suggest to you that you are deflecting without reflecting.
Commentary and explanation both have their place, and I have seen nothing out of order in any of the pertinent comments posted on this board. A dialogue, a debate, or even a conversation, is not going to occur in the absence of ‘commentary.’
Truthseeker,
You said:
“Whether you bow down or not the Commandment is to not make them, your avatar is a transgression of the Commandment.”
Part of that Commandment says this:
“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.”
—Exodus 20:4
Your avatar is a likeness of a thing in earth beneath (a man), so are you guilty of transgressing the Commandment?
am123
First, are you speaking of the blank outline of a man that is automatically included since I choose not to put one in? I use one like that when I practice, it is an outline from the waist up and usually the head and heart are no more.
Pictures attempting to portray Christ, like your picture, are sin. Most show a homosexual pretty kind of guy with beautiful hair and wonderful beard. Jesus Christ was an average man of His day,why do you suppose the boys hired Judas to point Him out?
Second, what say you regarding the pagan cross?
third, the article posted today refutes the majority of what you and Mike espouse.
You choose to engage in debate with an avatar associated with you, whether you chose the image or not. The commandment by the way doesn’t qualify if the image is complicated or not. You are using a graven image. Plus, have ever drawn anything in your life. I assume so. Did you break this commandment then? See how silly this is? Would you have us believe artwork is itself wrong, when the Most High called for artists to help build the temple, which has drawings of trees, cherubim, etc.?
Regarding the cross, I don’t know why you would call it pagan. The Romans, who were indeed pagan, used it for executions. It would be like calling the electric chair pagan. Besides, when the sign of the Son of Man appears in the sky, if it was a stake, everyone would be scratching their heads wondering what it is and what it represents. But if it is a cross, it would be universally recognized.
Regarding your article posted today, I didn’t read it, but I have a different view on this whole law vs. grace thing than both Mike and BEEF. I am somewhere in the middle between them.
am123
I am not attacking you just an honest question, are you afraid to read it? You are happy where you are and are not willing to learn or change if wrong?
And I am not attacking you, I am merely answering your question.
No, I am not afraid to read your article. I took a quick look at the beginning of it, but I just wish you would summarize your thoughts in a more focused and concise way. I just find your style to be rather roundabout and convoluted. It takes effort just to figure out where you’re coming from. And while you speak about the Word, I am at a loss to figure out why you disregard the Word in several topics we have broached in the past. For example, you maintain your WED- SAT Passion/crucifixion/resurrection timeline when that clearly does not line up with the meaning of the “third day” presented in both the OT and NT. Also, you disregard the obvious meaning of the sons of God in Genesis and Job to mean angelic beings.
So while I am forever searching for new revelation and meaning from the Word, for the above reasons, I do not feel compelled to read your article. It would help if you dealt with bite sized chunks, because in our past discussions, you go off on what I consider tangents unrelated to the topic at hand.
Again, this is not an attack, just an honest answer since you asked. If you want to bring up a specific point for example, I would be happy to discuss it with you.
am123
Sorry the Word of God does not come with cliff notes. I understand folks want very short and very simple answers.
As to the third day, Christ was raised on the third day, Christ said He would be in the grave three day and three nights. He was raised from the dead at the end of the third day
night one, day one ; He was in the tomb just as night came.
night two, day two;
night three, day three — Christ was resurrected at the end of the third day.
This fulfills the words spoken by Christ and those that talk of the third day.
But I understand it will convince no one.
am123 wrote:
“Besides, when the sign of the Son of Man appears in the sky, if it was a stake, everyone would be scratching their heads wondering what it is and what it represents. But if it is a cross, it would be universally recognized.”
Damn right a cross will be universally recognized.
And if you’re ever standing next to me when a giant cross appears in the sky, you would do well to follow me. I’ll be hauling my carcass away from it as fast as I can. Anytime a cross appears in the sky, it will be the work of the Enemy, of a mortal certainty.
There is nothing contained anywhere in the Scriptures telling us that the sign in the sky will be a cross. Rather, the Scriptures tell us distinctly and in no uncertain terms what the sign is, and what it will be when He comes in the clouds.
Well, I could share the meaning of “third day” as given in the Scriptures, but wouldn’t you ignore it as you did numerous times when we’ve discussed that in the past and just gone on about this that and the other thing. So what’s the point? I wish you no ill will, we just look at things a whole lot differently. Grace and peace.
“There is nothing contained anywhere in the Scriptures telling us that the sign in the sky will be a cross”
I agree. Neither does it say it will be a stake. A cross is my best guess right now, but have an open mind about it since I don’t know for sure. So if you want to share what you think the Scriptures tell us the sign is, I’m all ears…….or do you have a hair ball
For perpetual generations…
And it shall come to pass when I bring a cloud over the Earth…
And then shall they see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with Power and great Glory…
And it shall be for a SIGN (H226 אות ‘ôth) of a Covenant between Me and the Earth…
I will look upon it that I remember the Everlasting Covenant…
I do set My BOW in the cloud.
So I actually have all kids of theories on this.
So Santa drives a sky chariot like the sun god Apollo and Santa’s chariot is tied to eight reindeer, like the sun has eight planets. Rudolf must represent either a hidden red planet in our solar system known as Planet X/Nibiru or a comet that will dazzle the night skies while spewing cosmic dust into our atmosphere (refer to Revelation 8:7-11 and the Hopi prophecy for the red and blue star kachina). Santa’s reindeer have names that make it clear the planets they represent move violently. Santa, on his sun-chariot, leaves his position at the North Pole at the winter solstice holiday, indicating an eventual pole shift at this time of year. Santa’s holiday is often symbolized by the axis with a pole star above it – the world tree with a star on top. Often, the center is conceived as an axis, represented as a mountain, a stairway or ladder, a pole, or a tree. It is symbolized in our Christmas tree, with the pivotal star at its summit. Santa will not enter a house through the door, only through the chimney. Jesus tells us in John 10:9: “I am the door; if anyone enters through me, he will be saved.” Santa is the opposite of salvation, he represents the materialism of this world and he comes with fire and ash and soot along the vertical axis. John 10:1 says, “Truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief.” Santa is a thief of milk and cookies and children’s beliefs, misdirected at Christmas time.
Mark 13:18: “And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For [in] those days shall be affliction”
Matthew 24:20-24: “But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day”
Isaiah 2:19-21: “And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made [each one] for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.”
Revelation 6:12-17: “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”
A pole shift is the only explanation for why the stars would fall. There will be multiple forces that will have the potential to trigger a pole shift. One would be an immense collection of ice at the North Pole. As the pole loses stability, it will create incredible magnetic disturbances. Hydrogen molecules in water have a property called spin which gives it magnetization. As the pole starts to shift more and more, you will begin to see clouds being pulled across the sky. Another possibility would be some kind of disruption at our galactic core. But to me the most likely scenario would be a large comet and the potential for its magnetic pull as it would pass over the magnetic North. I just wonder, might this be something that we all get to watch as it pulls a large cloud of debris with it? Off in the distance, as it approaches, might this look like a cross when reflected upon by the sun? Would the debris trail appear as a cloud of power and great glory? Food for thought:
Revelation 8:7-11: “The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.”
Hmmm…a rainbow….you at least have Scriptural backing
for that brother BEEF 
I have not considered that before, but shall consider it going forward, starting now: is the token of the covenant between God and every living creature upon the earth that He will never flood the earth again with water (see chapter 9 of GEN), the rainBOW, be what the LORD uses to display to everyone on earth RIGHT BEFORE He comes to destroy it with fire
I can’t quite see that BEEF, but I don’t fault you for holding your view
When the sign of the Son of Man displays in the sky for all to see
, will it be a rainbow, a cross, or something else? Well, one thing is for sure as they say, we shall see 
In fact, EVERYONE shall see:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
—Matthew 24:29-31
Thanks brother BEEF for discussing things that matter
What an excellent subject to discuss in a public forum
In between trying to clean up, please excuse my alliteration, plenty of piles of PIXs poop and of course having to deal with the likes of Pharisees and his bitter, false fruit, and that’s not to mention ShARK-angel-Michael or whatever the latest name is of you know who
, and that’s just in this thread 
There’s also DJL, who treadeth upon shaky ground 
Keep staying feisty my friend
Keep defending the truth, fighting the good fight for the faith BEEF until whatever comes first brother, death, or if you are alive when He comes, eternal life at the Second Coming amen
Oh, one more thing about the sign of the Son of Man in the sky BEEF
. Whatever it is, the sign will make the nations mourn and weep 
.
Hmmm, what sign would make the nations of the earth to weep
Could it be a sign that reminds the nations of the earth of one who died an excruciating death for us, for the sins of all mankind, could it be …. a cross
Something to think about
Grace and peace to all who will receive it amen
Omega,
I see you changed your handle, yet I am able to perceive it is the same Omega because of the content of your posts and style
See how that works
ShARK-angel Michael or whatever you call yourself nowadays 
Anyway Omega, you said:
“A pole shift is the only explanation for why the stars would fall.”
Again, we have a difference of opinion on this Omega. And that is perfectly fine, for we differ not on salvation from the Lamb of God. So we can discuss these matters with differences of opinion and it interfereth not with our relationship with Messiah and each other. In fact, as believers here in a public forum, we can help sharpen each other when we bring good food to the table for others to consume, and this you have done and I know will continue to do, along with BEEF and Mike and others.
However, having said that, a pole shift is not the only explanation for why stars would fall. I am going to share in my next article an explanation of falling stars that doesn’t involve a pole shift but rather, something completely different that no one has heard before, something as close to a grand unifying theory on the Book of Revelation that I can come up with at this point in time….stay tuned for more
How’s that for a teaser
Yea, it’s still me. I was starting to get tired of ‘the beast’ part; I had to drop it.
Do you believe that a pole shift is in the equation at all?
I don’t think I can rule out a pole shift as a physical manifestation perhaps of one of the birth pangs of the Second Coming.
Truthseeker-
Was Moses guilty of making a graven image when he made that snake-pole for people to look at?
Numbers 21:8- The LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.”
It’s my opinion you are taking the commandment out of context. I’m all for following the law, but This commandment was given so we do not make graven images and bow to worship them.
Praying to a Cross, a Mary statue, or to a wooden owl would be in violation,
But a fishing lure, a decoy duck, or an avatar really has no limitation unless you bow and worship it. The whole point of this is to worship the creator, not the creation.
unxplainable
The Command is about worship yes, but my point which I did not make clear is making something that is suppose to represent a likeness to Jesus Christ is wrong. There is no record of what He looked like and I believe that was on purpose. Just look what the catholics have done. Whether or not something was made to be worshiped makes no difference, someone will like it and will use it as such. I have pictures in my house but none are spiritual in nature.
Mike
I appreciate your dedication to learning the Word given to us by Messiah, but I am obligated to inform you when you are wrong. I hate to break it to you, but there is one verse in here that says it all. As we both know, the Messiah’s Word is infallible which is why only a single parable would be necessary to demonstrate your error so that you may correct your understanding of the Scripture.
Matthew 5:17-20:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
In Matthew 5:17, the Greek word used for ‘destroy’ was καταλύω (kataluō), which means “to tear down,” “demolish,” and/or “do away with”. It was a commonly used word around the 1st century A.D. when referring to the demolition/destruction of buildings/temples as well as the nullifying or replacing of laws and constitutions. In this verse, the Messiah explicitly says that destruction is not the mission of His incarnation in regards to the Law and the prophets. Such a strong statement from Jesus on the issue of the Law is proof that, to one extent or another, His teachings were being misinterpreted by His opponents. The Messiah, therefore, found it necessary to speak on behalf of this issue to make Himself clear. The subsequent debates in the early church as to the role of the Law (such as in Acts 15) clearly demonstrate further that the issues of how the Law was to be lived out among the disciples of Jesus had not been universally settled.
TWICE the word “destroy” is used (both times using the same Greek word mentioned in the previous paragraph) in the FIRST line. This would have only been done to assure His disciples that the “destruction” of the Law was in direct opposition with His role to “fulfill”. The word used for “fulfill” was πληρῶσαι (plerōsai) and means to “establish”, “confirm”, “deepen”, and/or “extend”; none of which suggest the absolution of the Law. So the Messiah is not “fulfilling” the Law and prophets by replacing it. His words were carefully chosen here to clearly establish the longevity of the Law and prophets as contained in the written Torah.
Perhaps the best clue to the meaning of “fulfill” in this parable is the parallelism that is evident in verse 19. Simply put, the design of the parable, and especially in verse 19, suggests that what Jesus meant by “fulfilling” in verse 17 was “doing.” “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the prophets”; that is, to act and teach as though the Scriptures were no longer an authority. So the Messiah came not to “destroy”, but to “fulfill”; not to “neglect” the Scriptures, but to “obey” them. Thus, Jesus was asking His disciples to understand that one of His essential purposes for coming as the “promised” Messiah was to “expound” the Law and the prophets both by His Words and, especially, by His actions. He came to explain how one could actually do the Law, and what the purpose of doing the Law was; to overcome sin. He came to execute the Law and the Prophets in their fullness in HUMAN FORM – not in a different way – but in a perfect and complete way.
So if the obvious parallels in verse 19 are given their due respect, we see that the design of this parable indicates that verses 18 and 19 act as a reflection for the terms “destroy” and “fulfill” that we see in verse 17. That would then further bolster the argument that the Greek word used for “fulfill” suggests that we must remain faithful to the Law. Thus, a more proper translation for the final paraphrase in verse 17 might be: “I did not come to destroy but to keep” (the Law).
The end point of Messiah’s affirmation of the present day validity of the Law and the prophets is foretold in reference to the passing away of heaven and earth. The only other use of this phrase is in Matthew 24:35 which seems to parallel the verse under question: “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words shall not pass away.” Thus, the expression “heaven and earth” is not quite equivalent to “forever” but could be understood as: “for long as the current world order exists” – until the time of His return. In contrast, the Word of Messiah will endure beyond the demise of the present world order.
It may be argued by some that the aforementioned profound statement by Jesus in Matthew 24:35 (that His words would never pass away) puts His teaching above the Law, or at least gives to His own words a timelessness which He does not ascribe to the Law. But while it is clear that the Messiah counted His teaching ever as much an authority as the Law, nowhere in Scripture are we led to believe that He considered His words as a replacement for the Law. Instead, His life, words, and teaching were necessary for a CORRECT understanding of the Law, and only through His revelation could the purpose of the Law and the prophets be realized.
At this point, the parallelism begins to become obvious. In the same way that the Law is fulfilled even to the smallest stroke, letter, and punctuation, so must the Law be followed, even to the least commandment, until heaven and earth pass away. It then becomes clear that “destroy” and “fulfill” have much to do with whether or not the Law is maintained in practice throughout our temporal existence. Therefore, “Fulfill” cannot possibly suggest a nullification of the “doing” because in this parallel, “destroying” is the opposite of “doing”. It then becomes unreasonable to suggest that Jesus Spoke about a “fulfilling” that envisions the “destruction” of the “doing.” The Ten Commandments are the Father’s summation of the Law and ought to be our focus in applying ourselves to keeping the Law – it is our guide for repentance.
The collection of verses that you have amassed are a clear indication that you have been looking far too hard for something that simply does not exist. You have attempted to bend the Scripture to fit your beliefs when, instead, you should be bending your beliefs to fit the Scripture. I hope that with this information the Messiah can inspire you to correct your understanding of His Word as it is meant to be understood.
All religions are inspiration for aspiration with mythological allegoric stories meant for their connotation NOT their denotation. ANY argument or debate about any manuscript written and rewritten for centuries should always be subject to severe skeptical analysis due to subjective interpretation of the original stories and to be taken for face value is less than naive.
Face you values into a study of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Naïve Whale, and then pop off with some pontificating re your asinine charge of “written and rewritten.”
My patience with you sanctimonious simpletons is at an end.
Go earn the right to an opinion before you cough up any more of your smug, self-satisfied sputum.
Or, God forbid, stick around and actually learn something useful.
@Whitewhale:
Within that attempt to formulate a coherent thought lied your fatal flaw, for you arrogantly believe that your own temporal existence substantiates the efficacy of your opinion on any issue, let alone the existence of God. Irrationality and self-deception have warped your mind and twisted your reasoning skills. What is left is a cowardly skeptic, racing from one post to another, with only his atheism to back up any of his arguments.
To me, rejecting the inspired Word of the Living God sounds naive. The concept of eternal death, decay, and a slow, meaningless decomposition into sediment, soul, and soot also sounds naive. There’s a little shy fellow who goes by the account name ‘plsnogod’. Strike up a conversation with him and the both of you could throw in your worthless two-cents and run away together before ever really adding anything to the discussion. Or, perhaps you would find more solace in seeking articles that are more suited for the those who believe in the evolution of single-celled organisms.
Ooops!!! I stumbled across the propaganda page. Well I might as well comment. Yous are all wrong!! Yous base your reality off of a mythos.
Did you really just use “yous” in your posting?
Twice?
With a straight face?
It pains me now to recollect how much time I’ve wasted arguing with you.
Here is an opportunity for those that want God’s Holy Law be be aborted for ever to read and prove this article wrong.
The article is now posted ” Was the Law and Sin nailed to the cross”
Yes I know it is long, the subject is deep and if one does not understand God’s Law correctly the results could be terminal. Have at it!
A FOLLOW-UP TO LAW AND GRACE IS COMING: “LAW AND GRACE MADE EVEN CLEARER”
Thanks for all the comments and replies on this article it has helped to clarify this subject. I can see that both sides misunderstand one another. In takes me many hours to write and post because I strive for clarity and accuracy. I put a lot of thought into these articles. I think I can clear the misunderstanding up for all who seek the truth of scripture. We are not at war with one another, we have fallen into the trap of being polarized into opposing camps when it is not necessary. I believe my next article will go a long way toward reaching a consensus without compromise on either side. Look for it and pray for me. May the Lord Jesus Christ be glorified. He is risen indeed!
Hey, I got an idea, Mike!
Why don’t ALL you members of chris SCUM dumb go “Medieval” on one another, just like during THE DARK AGES for 1,000 years in your “homeland” of Europe, where your GUTTER religion “sprang” from!
You could torture and kill one another! OVER SCRIPTURE MEANING!
IT WOULD BE LIKE OLD TIMES!
We could broadcast the show world wide!
WHAT A REALITY SHOW IT WOULD BE!
Wow! And FOR SURE, there would NOT BE ONE CHILD THAT WOULD WANT TO JOIN YOU MADMEN VIOLENT HOARDING LUNATICS (for christ, of course)!
YOUR FOUL, VILE, VILE religion WOULD BE ALL GONE WITHIN 20 YEARS!
Hey, Cory, why don’t YOU start it off?
Eh? Go and torture and KILL one of those catholics…………………………….. for “christ”, of course!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
DEMONIC KILLER-CULT MORONS!
Mike wrote:
“It would be helpful if you could take a section at a time to comment on. It would not overwhelm me when I am answering other comments too.”
Very well. Should we pick a piece here, or should we wait for your next posting?
If here, then this is a section I think we should work on now because it is resolved fairly easily by a close examination of the evidence:
(from here to the end of comment is a quote from my rebuttal above)
The following verse is quoted by Mike from the KJV instead of the NLT:
“Ephesians 2: 15 KJV (Christ) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;”
Let’s look at it in Young’s as well:
the enmity in his flesh, the law of the commands in ordinances having done away, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace,
Confused? That’s what happens when dirty doctrine slips through the Scribe’s pen into the translation. We need a third opinion. Scripture 4 All:
The enmity in the flesh of Him the Law of the precepts in decrees nullifying that the two should be creating in Himself one new man making peace.
So the question is: WHAT IS BENG NULLIFIED? Is the Law being nullified in this verse? Or is it the ENMITY IN THE FLESH which is being abolished and done away with. According to Scripture 4 All and Young’s, and according to the Greek Manuscripts, it is the ENMITY which is being done away with. It is NOT the Law which is being done away with. This verse is far too important to get wrong, brothers. Examine this verse in every source of reference you can find, and study it out completely in the Greek with the concordances and the lexicons.
Beef, what exactly are you saying the enmity was. Are you saying the enmity was the flesh?
Mike,
The enmity in question is that enmity between the flesh and the precepts of the Law.
We can’t keep the Law because of our flesh:
Romans 7:15
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that I do not; but what I hate, that I do.
Verse 17
Now it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
And this is KEY:
Verse 22-23
FOR I DELIGHT in the Law of God after the inward man:
But I see ANOTHER LAW (that is, NOT the Law of God) in my members, WARRING AGAINST the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the LAW OF SIN (again, NOT the Law of God) which is in my members.
It is this LAW OF SIN which is the ENMITY in our members that Messiah nullified on the cross. The LAW OF SIN is the OTHER LAW that Paul found dwelling within him and which dwells within us.
I am looking at Ephesians 2:15 still Beef. How does the middle wall of partition fit into your view. The enmity was what caused the wall of partition between Jew and Gentile. This enmity was removed. This is an obvious reference to the Tabernacle partition. So how did the enmity in our flesh cause a partition between Jew and Gentile?
Is your front door bolted shut by the snow and ice yet, Mike? I had the Weather Chanel on earlier and was watching you guys getting hammered down there. The word is “catastrophic”. Hopefully not. That doesn’t sound like too much fun. And we hope you have your firewood all split and seasoned. Hope you fed the milk too cow and kept her fat and happy. We’re on deck up here to catch any leftovers from winter storm PAX, and even the leftovers are supposed to be significant.
You wrote:
“So how did the enmity in our flesh cause a partition between Jew and Gentile?”
Bring it back two verses to Ephesians 2:12
AT THAT TIME ye were without Christ…
BEING ALIENS from the Commonwealth of Israel,
AND STRANGERS from the Covenant of Promise,
having NO HOPE,
and WITHOUT GOD in the world.
That verse highlights the partition between the world (the Gentiles) and the Jew. The Jew had been given the Covenant of Promise; whereas the Gentiles had not. Messiah’s death was the time when the partition between the Jew and the Gentile was torn down, and the Covenant of Promise became AVAILABLE for the first time to the Gentile world. The veil was rent asunder. The partition was removed. And this happened at the same time when Messiah destroyed the enmity between the flesh and the spirit; the enmity between the law of sin and the Law of YHWH.
We are fine here, we have a couple of inches of snow so far but it is supposed to snow all day. The big problems are south of us.
I will give you what I have found in a little while. My wife is calling me to breakfast.
Mmmmmm… breakfast.
Say, that isn’t bacon I smell cooking, is it? And sausage? And ham?
DOH!!!!
Ephesians 2: 15
NASB by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
Holman He made of no effect the law consisting of commands and expressed in regulations, so that He might create in Himself one new man from the two, resulting in peace.
ISV He rendered the Law inoperative, along with its commandments and regulations, thus creating in himself one new humanity from the two, thereby making peace,
NET when he nullified in his flesh the law of commandments in decrees. He did this to create in himself one new man out of two, thus making peace
A prima facia reading of these verse gives its meaning; it really does not have to be explained.
I consulted Hendriksen, Wuest, Expositors Greek Testament, and Pulpit Commentary and they all concur that it was the Jewish Law that was abolished by Christ’s death. His Flesh means Christ’s flesh.
Taken in context this verse says that the Law contained in ordinances caused a wall of partition between Jews and Gentiles and that Christ’s death (flesh) abolished the Law that caused the separation.
This verse was under the heading: “The Lord Jesus fulfilled the Law and brought it to its conclusion”.
Was I wrong to put it under that category? Not according to The Pulpit Commentary.
“The Mosaic system, then, in its incidence especially on the Gentiles, was enmity. And this enmity, we are told here, Christ abolished in his flesh. The Jewish Law he fulfilled, and, by fulfilling, abolished, so that it is no more a separation, or cause of estrangement. The rending of the veil pointed to the rending of his flesh”.
Now you said you wrote the rebuttal with me in mind. If you think I am going to change my mind about what I, all these translators, and these commentators can plainly see is the meaning of the text you are dreaming.
A word about Interlinear: you can’t read the word order in a Interlinear like it is English. The Greek and Hebrew language does not have the same structure as English.
Here is an example:
If you look up Genesis 2: 8A and 9a you will see this ” 2:8 and he is planting Yahweh Elohim garden Eden 2:9 and he is causing to sprout Yahweh Elohim from the ground”. Now if you read that in English it says God was planted in the garden of Eden and He was caused to spout from the ground.
Let’s do one more, what will it be?
“A prima facia reading of these verse gives its meaning; it really does not have to be explained.”
Really Mike? You can consult the sources that agree with you until the Kingdom Comes. You know you will have to do better if you want to be a diligent seeker.
Let me spell it out frankly: There are two sides to this equation. There is an ENTIRE RELIGION built around the premise that the Law has been abolished. You will NOT have a difficult time locating legions of source material which agrees with that stance. Entire books have been written about it, all advocating in favor of a grave error. I am more than happy to concede that the material exists. My point, my argument, is that the material is all pointless and vain because it is all wrong.
You must consult the GREEK MANUSCRIPTS and nothing else. I don’t read Greek any more than you do, Mike. We don’t have to. We have been given every tool we need to accomplish this crucial task. Stop looking to men and translators to do the job for you. Do it yourself. Examine the material with your own eyes.
http://www.scripture4all.org/
Parse the verse. Study out the individual words with a concordance.
Mike — all that matters is what is. All that matters is what is ACTUALLY written in that verse. The translations are meaningless at best, dangerous at worst, just as the Bible commentary is meaningless and perhaps dangerous.
Let’s finish what we started before we move on, for a change.
Here is a fact. There is no punctuation in either the Hebrew or the Greek. I’m sure you know this to the case. Therefore, when we are taking the liberty of ADDING TO SCRIPTURE by inserting punctuation, we can COMPLETELY change the intended meaning of the verse. The meaning of a verse can be further altered by the addition of words which DO NOT appear in anywhere in the Greek Manuscripts. Case-in-point, the verse as it appears in the King James Version:
Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace…
We see that the KJV translators have not only taken the liberty of inserting punctuation, but they have gone to the trouble of actually adding THREE words which do not occur in the Greek Manuscripts.
And again is the verse from Young’s Literal Translation:
The enmity in his flesh, the law of the commands in ordinances having done away, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace…
While we may note the usage of punctuation in this translation of the verse, we note also that there are NO added words.
Let us look now at a WORD FOR WORD Greek to English translation of this verse, with no punctuation, with no additional words, and with no modifications made to the language whatsoever:
The enmity in the flesh of him the law of the precepts in decrees nullifying that the two he should be creating in himself into one new man making peace.
Now, by omitting the three words which the King James translators ADDED to the verse – namely ‘even’ and ‘contained’ and ‘so’ — we can even look at the verse as it appears in the KJV and come away with the following understanding once we look at the sentence fragments being separated by the commas:
SOMETHING WAS DONE AWAY WITH or ABOLISHED. What was it?
The enmity in His flesh was abolished.
BY WHAT was the enmity in His flesh ABOLISHED?
The enmity in His flesh was abolished by the Law of Commandments in Ordinances.
WHY was the enmity in His flesh abolished by the Law of Commandments in Ordinances?
The enmity in His flesh was abolished by the Law of Commandments in Ordinances for to make in Himself of twain one new Man making Peace.
There is ABSOLUTELY no reason why the wording of the King James cannot be construed to communicate the above meaning, once we have UNDONE what the KJV translators have DONE by adding three words which do not appear in the Greek Manuscripts. Moreover, when we remove what the KJV translators have added, the KJV rendering of the verse can be taken to agree completely with the verse as it appears in Young’s Literal Translation. In the ABSENCE of any additions to the written Word, Both the KJV and the Young’s Literal Translation agree completely with the word-for-word Greek-into-English version of the verse provided above.
These are facts, which are not subject to opinion and cannot be altered or amended by commentary.
Here you say the enmity is our flesh:
“The enmity in question is that enmity between the flesh and the precepts of the Law.
We can’t keep the Law because of our flesh:”
Here you say the enmity was in Christ’s flesh, you even capitalized the pronouns to show that:
The enmity in His flesh was abolished.
BY WHAT was the enmity in His flesh ABOLISHED?
The enmity in His flesh was abolished by the Law of Commandments in Ordinances.
WHY was the enmity in His flesh abolished by the Law of Commandments in Ordinances?
The enmity in His flesh was abolished by the Law of Commandments in Ordinances for to make in Himself of twain one new Man making Peace.
You are making this stuff up as you go Beef. You are trying to make scripture fit your pet doctrine.
“Here you say the enmity is our flesh”
The enmity is IN the flesh. Quoting Scripture I wrote:
“The enmity in His flesh”
The spirit is at enmity with the flesh, and the enmity resides within the flesh.
Then you wrote:
“You are making this stuff up as you go Beef. You are trying to make scripture fit your pet doctrine.”
My pet doctrine? Really?
Alrightie then…
Let us see how well you deal with the direct approach:
Please explain to me how the Young’s Literal Translation and the word-for-word Greek into English translation from Scripture 4 All dot org, both of which agree precisely with my “pet doctrine”, can be accounted for given your stated understanding of this verse.
Please do not duck out on this very specific question.
Please account for the specific wording found in the Greek Text, which I would be more than happy to reproduce right here in Greek to English format. I have already provided the English directly from the Greek, but I will provide the Greek as well if you like.
Please show me exactly what it is that I am making up as I go.
And remember – there is no need to rush. I’ll be happy to wait for as long as it takes.
Don’t duck out on this question he says as he ducks out on the question I just asked about how he can pontificate so loudly about the meaning of the flesh in one place and then pontificate just as loudly that it is something else in another comment.
Are you going to do what you said or not Beef?
Pick out another verses that you said was wrong and let me show them how wrong you are. I am not answering this for you but for those reading this who really want the truth about the Law in the New Testament.
I am tired of your arrogance. Put up or shut up.
Because I said the enmity was IN the flesh and I said also that the flesh prevents us from following the Law?
Is that your conundrum?
What is it you are objecting to specifically? If it is not what I just mentioned, then what is it?
And it is no surprise that you have descended into nastiness with me, Mike. Is that how you conduct yourself in a debate with a believer? The weakness of your argument is the reason for your sudden surliness, and nothing else.
I have been watching the way to deal with this topic for a long time. You can’t argue with the facts because you have no answer for the facts.
Do it for those reading then:
Explain the verses I have asked you to explain.
The Young’s Literal
Scripture 4 ALL Interlinear
…and the verse itself found as written in the Greek Manuscript.
By this point, Mike, I expect you to do anything but answer this challenge. You have never answered my direct approach in the past, you haven’t answered anything here, and we’ll see what you do next.
Your move.
You still didn’t answer the question. Probably because you don’t even understand your own comments.
My move? Okay, move on to the next verse, we are through with this one.
The reader can decide which is the clearest and makes the most sense.
“You still didn’t answer the question. Probably because you don’t even understand your own comments.”
I would ask you to take a moment to clarify what you mean.
I would also ask you to remember that you are in a debate with a friend.
We should not turn the page yet.
Number one, because I am genuinely confused about your specific meaning with respect to your objection. Perhaps you could ask me a direct question and I could then give you a direct answer, thus removing all question of a doubt.
Number two, because I believe your anger to be a symptom of the actual problem here. You have gotten angry in the past and abandoned several conversations which you started. I would ask you as a brother, in the interest of true strength of understanding, please do not abandon this specific verse without examining all of the points we can think to examine.
Ask me any direct question you like, but please address the specific question I have raised with respect to the two legitimate translations from reputable sources (not that your sources are not reputable — I’m only saying that mine are too), in addition to the Greek verse itself.
Mike,
I realize I am just a little fellow and not at all on your level which I am sure is the reason you never respond,
But I am really curious, you are a very knowledgeable man by your own account and I realize that fact which is why I am asking you this question — I am very curious as to why God the Father would place the two tables of stone on which the 10 Commandments were written in the Ark and then place in under the Mercy Seat in the HOLY of HOLIES??
There can not be many things more Holy the the Throne of the Father and the Ark of the Covenant – so the Commandments are kept under His Throne until the 10 Commandments are found to be defective, you know very burdensome, and then God the Father lets Christ pitch them out. They must now no longer be HOLY.
So I am asking you — because you have the Bible down pat — is this what happened?
The Law turned out to be evil, and if anyone tries to obey the law they are cursed??
God curses those that do not murder? This is all very confusing to me, but I am sure you have all the answers.
Beef, you got offended that I didn’t make a longer reply to your rebuttal. Now, maybe you can sit around and play all day on BIN but I can’t. We agreed to go through it in sections. I spent time to look at the first verse and compare my understanding of it with respectable Greek scholars. They saw the same thing I did.
Now you want me to explain to you how Greek syntax and inflection works and why the English word order in a Interlinear doesn’t mean a thing, and if I can’t or won’t, I am dodging the question.
My frustration is not because, as you so proudly think, that I am wrong and don’t want to admit it. I took time I don’t have to answer the first part of the question but that wasn’t enough, you want to go on stacking the deck.
I asked a direct question, it can’t be any plainer. I don’t know why you can’t see it.
Well, once again we are at loggerheads.
Mike,
am I to think you can not answer my question and that is why you are ignoring it?
I realize it is kind of difficult to explain how something so HOLY can be pitched out with the bath water so to speak. but give it a try.
truthseeker, the Law is not evil, we are. The Law was placed in the Ark because the Ark is a type of Christ and He kept the Law perfectly.
“Don’t duck out on this question he says as he ducks out…”
That quacked me up
…..he says, trying to ease the tension between two believers
what a great answer Mike now you can pitch the Law out.
Mike even if what you say were true the Law must still be Holy to be placed in the Ark.
If the Law is Holy and Jesus Christ is Holy and we are to become Holy as is Christ – then it is incumbent upon us to become Holy and live by the very same Holy law as Christ.
The Law, the Statutes and the Judgments were never nailed to the stake. When Jesus Christ returns the Saints of God will be found living by the same Holy Law as does Jesus Christ and His Father even now and forever.
The Law when obeyed does not bring a curse upon the Saints of God, it opens the mind of the Saints to the very Holy Righteous Divine Nature of God the Father.
“Beef, you got offended that I didn’t make a longer reply to your rebuttal.”
False. I objected to the dismissive manner in which you answered my posting. You disparagingly referred to what I had posted as ‘commentary.’ Then you accused me of not quoting Scripture, when in fact I provided 18 verse quotes in my post.
“Now, maybe you can sit around and play all day on BIN but I can’t.”
Once again you are complaining about your busy schedule. Do you know what my schedule is? No, you do not. What you are doing is making excuses and nothing more.
“We agreed to go through it in sections. I spent time to look at the first verse and compare my understanding of it with respectable Greek scholars. They saw the same thing I did.”
You went to source material from Christian scholars who agree that Messiah did away with the Law of YHWH. What did you expect to find? a dissertation on Judaism?
“Now you want me to explain to you how Greek syntax and inflection works and why the English word order in a Interlinear doesn’t mean a thing, and if I can’t or won’t, I am dodging the question.”
No Mike. I have asked you very specifically to explain how it is that two reputable translations of the verse you have called to the table do not agree with the interpretation you are espousing. I have asked you to explain how the Greek says one thing and you say something else. I plan to provide the Greek version of the verse in question in one of my upcoming posts.
“My frustration is not because, as you so proudly think, that I am wrong and don’t want to admit it. I took time I don’t have to answer the first part of the question but that wasn’t enough, you want to go on stacking the deck.”
What I want is for you to defend your position. That is how a debate works, Mike. You make your statement. Then the other side makes an opposing argument. Then you are called to defend your original statement. You have not defended your argument because you have failed to answer even a single objection I have raised. Hear that again: You have answered exactly zero objections I have raised. Nada.
“I asked a direct question, it can’t be any plainer. I don’t know why you can’t see it.”
I will ask you again: If it is so simple a question, then ask it simply. Perhaps you could do it l like this:
BEEF SUPREME, here is the question I would like you to answer:
And then ask the question.
Do that and every one will see whether I answer your question or not. You are making a smokescreen – you are diverting and employing childish and immature tactics. It is unbecoming of a man of Messiah to do what you are doing.
“Well, once again we are at loggerheads.”
We are at loggerheads because you are refusing to comply with the simple rules of debate. You are refusing to plainly state a question for me to answer and you are refusing to answer the objections and questions I raise. That’s not even loggerheads Mike, that is you ducking out and quitting.
am123, thanks for the humor.
HERE WE GO.
This is the entire verse in Greek, followed by a word for word translation with Strong’s Concordance numbers and definitions provided. I didn’t look this up – I compiled it myself to show you the facts of the verse.
I am not doing anything with word order; the King James is. I am not adding a single word to the verse, the King James adds three words.
First the Greek:
Ephesians 2:15
τὴν ἔχθραν, ἐν τῇ σαρκὶ αὐτοῦ τὸν νόμον τῶν ἐντολῶν ἐν δόγμασιν καταργήσας, ἵνα τοὺς δύο κτίσῃ ἐν αὑτῷ εἰς ἕνα καινὸν ἄνθρωπον ποιῶν εἰρήνην,
And then the word-for-word translation, in order, exactly as the verse appears in the original Greek texts:
THE: G3588 ὁ, ἡ, τό ho hē to The masculine, feminine (second) and neuter (third) forms, in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom): – the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
ENMITY: G2189 ἔχθρα echthra Feminine of G2190; hostility; by implication a reason for opposition: – enmity, hatred.
IN: G1722 ἐν en A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); “in”, at, (up-) on, by, etc.: – about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.
FLESH: G4561 σάρξ sarx Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): – carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).
OF HIM: G848 αὑτοῦ hautou Contraction for G1438; self (in some oblique case or reflexive relation): – her (own), (of) him (-self), his (own), of it, thee, their (own), them (-selves), they.
THE LAW: G3551 νόμος nomos (LAW) (used with τὸν [son of] = THE LAW) From a primary word νέμω nemō (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), generally (regulation), specifically (of Moses [including the volume]; also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle): – law.
OF COMMANDMENTS: G1785 ἐντολή entolē From G1781; injunction, that is, an authoritative prescription: – commandment, precept.
IN: (G1722 – see above)
ORDINANCES: G1378 δόγμα dogma dog’-mah From the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): – decree, ordinance.
ABOLISHING: G2673 καταργέω katargeō From G2596 and G691; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively: – abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.
THAT WE MIGHT: G2443 ἵνα hina Probably from the same as the former part of G1438 (through the demonstrative idea; compare G3588); in order that (denoting the purpose or the result): – albeit, because, to the intent (that), lest, so as, (so) that, (for) to. Compare G3363.
MAKE: G2936 κτίζω ktizō Probably akin to G2932 (through the idea of the proprietorship of the manufacturer); to fabricate, that is, found (form originally): – create, Creator, make.
OF TWO: G1417 δύο duo A primary numeral; “two”: – both, twain, two. (G1519) εἰς eis A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: – [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literally or figuratively.
ONE: G1520 εἷς heis (Including the neuter [etc.] ἕν hen); a primary numeral; one: – a (-n, -ny, certain), + abundantly, man, one (another), only, other, some. See also G1527, G3367, G3391, G3762.
NEW: G2537 καινός kainos Of uncertain affinity; new (especially in freshness; while G3501 is properly so with respect to age): – new.
MAN: G444 ἄνθρωπος anthrōpos From G435 and ὤψ ōps (the countenance; from G3700); manfaced, that is, a human being: – certain, man.
MAKING: G4160 ποιέω poieō Apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct): – abide, + agree, appoint, X avenge, + band together, be, bear, + bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, + content, continue, deal, + without any delay, (would) do (-ing), execute, exercise, fulfil, gain, give, have, hold, X journeying, keep, + lay wait, + lighten the ship, make, X mean, + none of these things move me, observe, ordain, perform, provide, + have purged, purpose, put, + raising up, X secure, shew, X shoot out, spend, take, tarry, + transgress the law, work, yield. Compare G4238.
PEACE: G1515 εἰρήνη eirēnē Probably from a primary verb εἴρω eirō (to join); peace (literally or figuratively); by implication prosperity: – one, peace, quietness, rest, + set at one again.
**********************************
Please do recall that both the Young’s Literal Translation and the Scripture 4 All translation of this same verse agree exactly with the Greek which is presented above.
So is that the way you intend to leave things, Mike?
You take a stance on an argument, you then refuse to defend that stance, after which you get nasty with your opponent, and then silence the debate?
If that’s the way you intend to leave things then I will have completely misjudged your character as both a man and as a believer in Messiah.
Your position on the matter is not the issue. Your handling of the matter is.
“If here, then this is a section I think we should work on now because it is resolved fairly easily by a close examination of the evidence:”
What you mean like your example response to presented evidence of “not looking”?
“not looking”
I swear, Pix, if I had even the slightest idea what you were taking about, I would eat my socks.
Yes, Pix does have a habit of posting comments that are out in left field and have nothing to do with the subject at hand
The LAW is simple people complicate it… The Word LAW… Love Always Works… 24/7 … 365 Days A Year… It brings Sorrow It Brings Joy… It Gives One The Meaning Of Life… The Word LIFE… Love Is Fathers Example… That’s why it Always Works…
The law has nothing to do with love, or any type of emotion. Law is about regulation, for which regardless of the laws being fair, have to be fought over on another point of law, not on how it makes you feel.
Remember that if you every get charged with anything, the judge couldn’t give a sh*t how you feel about it. Only if it is lawful or not.
Where the ancient literature is talking about gods laws, they meant natural laws that are common amongst most societies, eg. don’t kill others, don’t steal from others, don’t knowingly tell lies about others, etc. For example in the Magna Carta they refer to only gods laws being valid, they didn’t mean as per the unsubstantiated claims of the various religions, but basic rights.
I think the problem in interpretation arrises because the religious are fed total codswallop about the antiquity of their religion, when in fact Judaism isn’t much older if any than Christ-I-Anti which was invented in political Rome at the earliest in the 4th century CE. It took them many centuries to agree on what to include in the bible. Mostly 6th to 10th century Christ-I-Anti and is not from the Jesus time line at all. And neither religion has anything much in common with the real history or the polytheistic beliefs of the Israelites.
Pix: I see that you have been vigorously working to improve that favorite cut-and-paste paragraph of yours.
“It took them many centuries to agree on what to include in the bible.”
That’s 14 new words!!! I hope that you didn’t stay up all night for this.
Well, here’s a trusted quote to go with your pointless trolling.
Small minds discuss people, average minds discuss event’s, great minds discuss ideas.
Eleanor Roosevelt.
Speaking of pointless trolling, how did you and your leach combatants find us here? This article isn’t even headlined!
If it’s a favourite cut and paste of mine, then it can’t also be 14 new words. It’s a contradiction. Get back to us when you can make your small mind up what is you are trolling.
How is adding new words to a paragraph a contradiction?
Still believing your hipster’s monied elite politicians Pix?
Small minds discuss people, average minds discuss event’s, great minds discuss ideas.
Eleanor Roosevelt.
Translation
Intimates discuss people, indifferents discuss event’s, shutters out discuss ideas.
Eleanor Roosevelt – Because it’s not what you know it’s who you know.
Nobody cares, get a life of your own instead of being a brown nosing troll who has no point to make so and has to resort to contemptible personal attacks.
I’ve never insulted you personally, I don’t call people ugly, fat, smelly, stupid, or what ever passes as conversation amongst the troll population, because I disagree with a comment.
If I disagree I’ll say why, not make personal insulting attacks, like a stupid kid in a play ground. One has to ask how you are, 5?
“Get back to us when you can make your small mind up what is you are trolling.”
Get back to “us”. I’m pretty sure that the only person that I was speaking to was you. Who are the members of this legion that you speak of? I sure hope that what I am trolling is a “who” and not a “what”…
Stupid? Did you just say you don’t call people stupid?
You must have used the Jaws of Life to extract that lie from your pantry.
“Who are the members of this legion that you speak of? I sure hope that what I am trolling is a “who” and not a “what”…
”
What you mean you’ve never heard of the ‘Royal we’?
I’m speaking the Queens English, not hillbilly American.
“I don’t call people ugly, fat, smelly, stupid, or what ever but one has to ask, how old are you, five?”
I’m all for a bit of snobbery Pix and, if you’ll excuse my paraphrasing, that there is just too funny my man. By halves.
Did ya feel a little hypocrisy crawling up your spine when you wrote that? You surely should have. Now then Beef Supreme has shown you some examples of your insulting; what say you Pix?
BEEF SUPREME
“Stupid? Did you just say you don’t call people stupid?”
I call the comment stupid, even ill thought out, but never the person. The person is not the comment.
“You must have used the Jaws of Life to extract that lie from your pantry.”
LOL. Then by all means find an example of me insulting someone personally rather than their comment.
Good luck.
“A youtube video is not a message from god, but an idiot suffering from god complex.”
/religion/2014/02/a-message-from-god-that-you-need-to-hear-and-proof-to-back-it-up-2464430.html
Took about three seconds to pull that up.
“God gives a man cancer, doctors are unable to cure, devoted friends thank God… UG. The moral of the tale is, some people are just plain stupid.”
/prophecy/2014/01/patrick-heron-is-now-with-his-lord-face-to-face-2457578.html
There is no difference between a religion, politics or dictator.
If given or assume the authority, the all treat the population as their personal property, they all vilify and bully minority groups, they all imprison, torture and murder dissenters, and they all commit genocides. There is no difference apart from the labels.
AND, THE Beef-in-ATOR IS SOLID “PROOF” OF THAT STATEMENT!
THE MALE Spiritual TERRORIST for a white-skinned male “god”!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
A TRUE euro-caucasian invader chris 0 CREEP pompous douche-bag!
HEY, Jed!
ARE YOU A PIG IN NJ????????????
No, too much time on your hands.
So, you must be a ‘retired “ PIG” from NJ, eh?
SMART A$$ boy!
I HATE you even MORE, if you are!
““A youtube video is not a message from god, but an idiot suffering from god complex.””
Is a true statement, not an insult. They have a mental health problem and don’t know it. Plenty of them in America, they can’t afford a doctor or the medicine.
““God gives a man cancer, doctors are unable to cure, devoted friends thank God… UG. The moral of the tale is, some people are just plain stupid.”
OK, that should have said ‘doctors are able to cure’, and a better word would have been ignorant. Again a true statement, not a personal attack, seeing as they are thanking the wrong entity, in fact they are thanking the entity that gave the person cancer, rather then the team of people that cured them. Ungrateful or what?
Both examples are attacking the actions and comments, not the actual person. A persons actions can be stupid, but they are not personally stupid. You are confusing the person with their comments and actions. Even the most intelligent person can make the odd stupid comment, which is fair game.
Your multiple personalities are showing.
“You are confusing the person with their comments and actions.”
I am doing no such thing, your grace. I am merely quoting you. What you see is the result of perhaps four minutes of looking over some of your past comments — more time than I actually cared to spend on the task.
You insult individuals on a regular basis, as the evidence clearly shows.
That you pretend not to might have vexed me at one point, but I have long since come to understand the nature of that flimsy filament which connects your mind with reality.
Facts can be stubborn things to argue against, Pix.
“Both examples are attacking the actions and comments, not the actual person.”
Calling a man an idiot who had a vision from God is an attack on that actual person. What aggravates that insult is you also claiming that he has a mental condition. So essentially, according to your own words. You just called someone with a mental deficiency an idiot.
When you say that some people are stupid because they believe in God, you might as well call me stupid because I believe in God. What “fact” justifies this insult?
According to your reasoning I could call your avatar stupid without actually calling you stupid.
You know, beefy boy, Jed AKA omega the PIG!
I finally agree with you on something!
YOUR MULTIPLE PERSONALITIES ON BIN, ARE SHOWING!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!Oh, deliver me from the DEMENTED ONE, Jed, the DICK SUPREME!
Basically if you can’t tell the difference between eg, ‘that was a stupid thing to do/say’. and ‘you are stupid’, then you are a hopeless case in desperate need for lessons on how to talk to people in a civil manner.
Why, omega the PIG,
AKA DICK SUPREME 
, you ARE STUPID (because you “believe” in god) AND
THAT ALSO MEANS,
YOU ARE DANGEROUS, TOO!
Omega and the Beast
“According to your reasoning I could call your avatar stupid without actually calling you stupid.”
Yes, you would be correct, it is stupid and the result of my overestimation of people getting the connection between Pix and Critic. I can live with it, what’s your problem?
Provided you come up with why you think it’s stupid. Otherwise it’s just trolling. Don’t you just love adult debate?
“…some people are just plain stupid.”
I didn’t write that madam. You did. And in so doing you left no room to wiggle your way out of the predicament you’re in right now.
Your hypocrisy is on a level with your dishonesty; which is to say — monolithic.
I’m not twisting your words, Pix. I’m merely quoting them.
That’s quite enough of arguing with you over this ridiculous stance of yours. I would never have taken the liberties I do with you if you hadn’t been such a smugly moralistic self-righteous snapperhead in the past. You are the main reason I address you the way I do. If you can’t see that fact for what it is, then that’s just too bad. Stop making victim noises and take it like a man. Oh wait — I think you’re lying about that too, aren’t you.
Beef
“Facts can be stubborn things to argue against, Pix.”
You and your religion have never had any problems with that one. On the contrary, “not looking” is their battle cry and constant companion.
Beef and Omega.
In your mind, how did “a youtube video” translate in your head as a personal attack on the one being talked about?
And it is mental ill health, just look at the correlation between the near total domination of American claims on youtube on how special they are and how the big almighty know it all is speaking to them on your behalf. = suffering from untreated narcissistic personality disorder. Mostly harmless unless given a position of authority.
Pix,
You are absolutely correct about the insane and depraved state of most ‘religious voices’ emanating from within the United States. Your general assessment of the US as well as your general assessment of religion is not something I disagree with you about to the slightest degree. I believe you know this to be true.
ALSO — since you seem to be so profoundly agitated by the treatment you regularly suffer at the tip of my digital sword, I will do my best to curtail my vituperation. Doing you emotional harm is beyond the scope of my intentions. We’ll leave off considering whether or not you deserve a good verbal throttling now and then, and I will stick a cork in it to the best of my abilities. Knowing you as well as I do, I cannot promise complete abstinence from an occasional snide remark, but I will definitely wind back the velocity on my effrontery and personal remarks.
Beef.
“Knowing you as well as I do, I cannot promise complete abstinence from an occasional snide remark, but I will definitely wind back the velocity on my effrontery and personal remarks.”
You don’t know me at all. But I know you tell lies denying you said you were not going to look at presented evidence after you requested it. You even told me you couldn’t find the links when I presented book quotes. eg from Ecclesiastical History, where I replied “try a library”.
You know what Pix,
You can pound sand. You just put yourself right in my crosshairs where you can stay.
You are an intolerable little guttersnipe with a bad strain of fraudulence running through your veins like a virus.
Rather than dialing back, I think I’ll ramp up on you.
That’s what you really wanted anyway. With your mouth constantly full of lies, I’m happy to give it to you.
Fool.
With a tip of the hat to Omega, who used this video in another thread, I think the following video applies to the comments in this thread of Shark-gull (and his/her many other IDs), Pharisees, Whitewhale, and Pix:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0
LOL what do you think I spend all day on here arguing with myself then?
So much for the debate…if you can call it that.
Mike
Jude 4
4 “For there are certain men crept in unawares who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness and denying the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ”.
Jude in this scripture makes the accusation that certain men, evil men selected long ago, have and will crepe into the Church of God and turn the grace or kindness of God into
Lasciviousness (vice, filthiness, wantonness) otherwise known as SIN;
Did you get that? Turning grace into sin and will earn for themselves’ the verdict of death.
How do you turn grace in to sin, —— BY TEACHING THE LAW IS ABOLISHED!
Paul in Galatians 5: 19 list lasciviousness as one of the works of the flesh i.e. SIN.
The list includes: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry —.
And in verse 21 makes the point as a warning to the Saints: those that do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.
All those that claim the Law is no longer to be observed that the Law of God is nailed to the stake are turning grace in to SIN. How can grace be turned into sin if the Law was abolished?
Sin is the transgression of the LAW.
Dear brother,
A lot of work you have done in putting this article together. Let me ask you to consider one thing…
If the law was ended with Christ, why did He speak of keeping the law of Sabbath at the end of days? Surely He was aware and omnipotent and knew all things past and future, yet, if we apply the Word as you have interpreted it, then Christ would be making a mistake, which we know is impossible , when He spoke these words:
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
If He had abolished the commandments, then we could kill those who anger us, steal their wealth, rape their wives and daughters and then what? Go home and be good Christians? Show up and pay a tithe on the money we stole to some church that teaches like you believe and what go do heaven?
Christ also gave a warning, and I fear brother that it applies to this teaching of yours.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Brother, I sense that this issue is causing you some conscience problems and that is why you feel the need to justify your actions. You know what that is referred to as in His Word?
stiffnecked
Rather than repenting for your sin, you are choosing to justify it. I am not your judge, so I am in no way judging you, but I speak this in love desiring that you be considered great in His kingdom.
Brother be blessed and do not take my word, but seek the Word of God in everything, trying the spirit that leads you.
DISCLAIMER: This post does not mean I am against following the law or not. It merely is a post to perhaps get this thread back on the topic of the article. I know that is probably wishful thinking with the likes of Pix and Shark-angel-Michael (or whatever name he/she currently goes by
) around.
Question for BEEF, or anyone else who wants to take a crack at it:
Hypothetically, let’s say in a few years the temple gets rebuilt and the law of Moses is implemented by the priests, what would you, as a follower of Messiah, who lives in America, do—travel to Jerusalem periodically to offer animal sacrifices for your sins? I know you know your sins are covered by the blood of the Lamb, but I am asking this just to provoke discussion to flush out your thoughts. I am curious as to how someone like yourself, with your beliefs, would function in a world where the temple exists.
am123,
If tomorrow brought the ‘grand opening’ of a “third temple” in Jerusalem, I would know of a certainty that it has nothing to do with Messiah, other than to counterfeit His promise. If I ever see Rabbinical Jews chopping up Bambi and tossing the pieces onto a brazen altar, whatever they think they’re doing, they’re not obeying Messiah and they’re not obeying the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses (the Law [Instruction] of YHWH) includes very specific ordinances for when Israel comes into the land — what is to be done and how it is to be done. And perhaps matters would be helped if we considered this fact: Just as the Law of Moses is none other than the Law of YHWH, the Law of YHWH is none other than the LAW OF MESSIAH.
Temples One and Two were ordained and built at the Word of YHWH. His specific Instructions to a specific people at a specific time were given and acted upon. If the Rabbinical Jews living in the land today build a new temple, they will be acting in the ABSENCE of YHWH’s orders and against His Word.
In the coming Kingdom, we will not have to wonder at these questions. I see that animal sacrifice for sin has been brought to its completion in the change of priesthood from Levitical to Melchizidechian. It is possible that ALL animal sacrifice has been finished for good, but I make note of the fact that no such stipulation can be found written in the pages of Scripture.
Brother am123, I am not going to Israel and I am not going to Jerusalem until I am LED INTO THE LAND by Messiah Himself, or at least by a genuine proxy for Messiah; another Moses or Joshua perhaps, though I believe Messiah Himself to be the ‘other’ Joshua. No man on Earth has the right or the authority to enter that land in the absence of YHWH’s invitation. I stay out of there until it is time for Israel to return.
OK, thanks for your thoughtful response BEEF. But just a quick follow up question and comment. What if this hypothetical temple was cleansed following the specific ordinances given in the Law?
And regarding animal sacrifices possibly coming to an end, well, maybe Ezekiel’s temple is a discussion we can have at another time
.
Re Zeek’s Temple — I am of the opinion that some forms of animal sacrifice will resume. I don’t think Zeek’s Temple is the end-times or Millennial Kingdom Temple, but the possibility exists, considering its size and location.
Now then — you seem to be leading toward a specific question pertaining to some aspect of the Law or the Temple, so just cough it up and let’s have a look at it. (It’s not a hair ball, is it? You happen to be one hairy dude!! [insert goofy emoticon here])
No legitimate temple can ever be built unless YHWH ordains it and commands it to be built. They can scrub it down with bleach and turpentine for all I care — it still won’t be clean because it won’t be CHODESH.
Regarding Zeek’s temple as you call it, I don’t think it is a Millennial Kingdom Temple, for how can it be, for the law of Moses will still be in effect while we have this present earth and heaven, and the temple rules and regulations and temple furnishings for Ezekiel’s temple are DIFFERENT than the law of Moses.
Regarding what you perceive as a possible hair ball, I wouldn’t call it that, but I just have an opinion that is different than yours AND Mike’s. And rather than share it in this thread now, I thought I would wait until you and Mike duke it out
and then share it once the dust settles rather than take things in a different direction before you and Mike get a chance to settle your differences.
BTW, go ahead and use an emoticon, I know you can do it, I’ve seen you do it ONCE
!
I did use an emoticon once. It gave me a rash.
The law was given to help the people so they would stay healthy and thrive as a community.
Also, I don’t believe the word obviously is in the bible. You should download the free online software: esword, and compare. I find it useful to have at least 2 or 3 different translations around also to compare with the software.
Spoken of like a good worker bee
“He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge;
the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.”
John.12:48
we go round and round about this keeping of Yah’s laws. we talk to our loved ones in our family and friends and strangers, but hardly anyone believes we should keep ALL of the Laws that we can in our day. i’ve pondered this many times. it is clearly written in the scriptures, i refer to revelations 12 and 14 about those who will be saved on judgement day. clearly written. those saved will be those who keep Yah’s commandments and the witness of Yahushua. it is my opinion that because some people refuse to keep His laws and want to follow man made worship, they will NOT be given the Set Apart Spirit to tell them right from wrong. they might be given SOME guidance, some light, it seems to me. Yahuah does exactly what He wants to do. this is why they are not getting the clearly written words of the scripture to be saved. i get this understanding from 2 thess. 2 and john 14 and 15. please read these passages, dear people. one day, 2 years ago, i was shoved by something i can’t explain to have my ears and eyes opened to the truth of the scriptures. what a life changing blessing. the peace and freedom of His love for me everyday is amazing. i am so thankful. the more i keep His laws and ask Yahushua to forgive when i mess up, the more the Set Apart Spirit speaks to me. i hope you and my loved ones will someday at least try to worship Our Creator the way He wants to be worshiped. the train is coming down the tracks, folks, get out of the way or you will not make it. i tell you this because of my great love for you all. sincerely. thank you beef supreme, omega files, and truthseeker. you put a lot of work into your good comments.
What great theologians you are! I admire you! I cannot produce such long and complicated theologian studies and don’t want to, period. I am only a normal old man that wants to love Jesus Christ, Yeshua and follow His steps as good as I can.
I only remember what the council of the Apostles wrote in the Acts 15:28-29 (NIV), “It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.”
Yes, farewell!
Kauko Loukas
http://sites.google.com/site/glacierburst/
Si!
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? Acts15
But without faith it is impossible to please him Hebrews 11
And the law is not of faith Galatians3
Mike your post was great. Do you see all of these “Self Righteous,” keepers of the Law and law come out of the wood work. To them Christ’s death upon the cross is insufficient enough so that they must provide a righteousness themselves by keeping the Law. They teach heresy.
You haven’t read a single word then Larry.
You’re doing the knee-jerk fundamentalist reaction.
Try reading what is actually written before you sum up your conclusion.
Yours is the number one most common error coming from your camp.
You absolutely refuse to hear what’s being said in reality, and listen only to the voice in your mind.
May I pose a question to all,
It is clear many on this site commenting on this article and including its author believe the Holy Righteous Laws, Judgments and Statutes of God were given man as a mistake and God’s Son had to come to earth to remove the huge burden from off the back of man.
The Question:
Would you that believe so — would you care whether or not God obeyed His own Laws???
Is it fine if God lies to you? “Sure I am going to save you” — wink wink
Is it fine if God were like the Germans in W W 2 just murdering folks right and left for pleasure?
Is it fine if God were to steal your money and give it to another that He likes more?
Is it fine if God were to tell lies about you to your neighbors? Like, “Watch your daughters, this man loves to rape 6 year olds”.
I would think that those that hate the Perfect Law — surely must — want God to “love” them according to His Own Law.
One more, do you want your neighbors to obey God’s perfect Law when it comes to you and your family? Really?
And you claim this Law is harsh,,, that statement is beyond my comprehension. no it can never save you — ever — the only way you can be saved is if God the Father in His great mercy and kindness/grace covers you with the blood of His Son. If not, you are dead for eternity.
You can debate this until Christ returns but this is the bottom line. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. THE LAW STANDS immutable!
To all!!
Consider what value God the Father places upon the 10 Commandments!
God’s Law written on two tables of stone by the very finger of Jesus Christ, the very God of the Old Testament, is so HOLY it is kept in the Ark under the Mercy Seat of God the Father, the Mercy Seat represents the THRONE of GOD the FATHER and the Mercy Seat resides in THE HOLY OF HOLIES.
At the death of Christ the Vail to the Holy of Holies was ripped open that we may have access to the very Throne of God the Father, and the 10 Commandments are kept under the Father’s Throne!!!!! and now we can approach that Throne for all our needs.
An then — you say —- the Law is harsh and a burden and Christ had to come and take the burden off our backs???? And you call this “rightly dividing the WORD of GOD???
What say you Mike Clinton??
“It is clear many on this site commenting on this article and including its author believe the Holy Righteous Laws, Judgments and Statutes of God were given man as a mistake…”
Is it any wonder no one answers you TS when you preface your questions like that
Gods laws = natural laws. Eg laws that are common to all forms of society, eg, don’t kill others, don’t steal from others, don’t falsely accuse others etc.
The word god did not mean the Christian god, but was an abstract word that meant anything and everything that can affect your life, from fleas to bad weather to slave gladiators to despotic dictators.
Just a reminder that you are interpreting ancient literature with a modern mind set, they did not think in the same way we do. Their literature is totemic based, eg, they described things using totemic representation, instead of labeling them as we do with nouns.
Well good morning Pix. Don’t you have a class to teach or some academic research to follow through with?
“Gods laws = natural laws.” Laws aren’t natural, they take cognitive thought processing to create. There is an intuitive part in each one of us that knows these laws.
The word “God” is indeed a broad term. When speaking about the Biblical account, might you refer to the use of YHWH Elohim as the translation properly indicates?
Good Morning, “SCARY” chris 0 CREEPS!
This message is for your DEMONIC MASTER, The spiritual TERRORIST named Beef Supreme.
I now know him as Jed, the retired PIG from NJ!
Hey Jed, want to make sure you see this post!
Would NOT want you to hear about it from one of your “Truly EVIL, DEMENTED, VIOLENT, LUNATIC, and HOARDING “disciples”! (you know, your “other” BIN “personalities” HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!)
Here is the link!
/food-and-farming/2014/02/beef-producer-behind-9-million-pound-recall-halts-operations-usda-investigates-2460488.html#comment_201556
While Shark-cull has a lot in common with Pharisees, but unlike Pharisees, at least Sharkie says something funny once in while.
Hi pix,
Just passing through and saw you making comments again, Hey how is the flooding going in Wales has it effect you as well?
Because Great Britain has rejected the Law of God and He has removed your protection, more disasters are on the way.
Oh? and did you see Germany is again rearming? You might want to keep and eye on a fellow named Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg, very possibly he has a big future.
have a nice day
I posted five articles today that I have been working on for a long time. Check them out:
/contributor/pages/320/708/bio.html
Bravo!
Gee you make heavy weather of it all. God has written the ‘laws’ in our soul, written as truth. And if we live true to our soul, which means, express all we feel using those feelings to uncover such truth in our soul – bring it to light, then as we live it, we’ll naturally be living truly us God wants us to live.
For me it all depends upon whether you want to try and live according to your mind, just as trying to work out what God says through the Bible, or live naturally and freely according to what you really feel – the truth of those feelings. But of course trying to live with your mind asserting control is far easier than trying to look to your feelings to reveal the truth that’s contained within your soul.
The way of our evilness is living using our minds to control ourselves, of which if you ask me, all these long comments of scripture quotes are perfect examples of. And the way of healing ourselves of our evilness is to stop denying our bad feelings, accept and express them, seeking the truth they are trying to show us.
One can either tie oneself up with mental gymnastics forevermore, or look to ones feelings for the way out. Jesus lived true to his feelings, he didn’t get all caught up in his mind, trying to work out what God’s Laws were and then applying his mind to ensure he lived them. Jesus followed his feelings, he lived a feeling-led life, something no one has as yet emulated on Earth because we’re all taught from conception how to deny our feelings and use our mind to take over from them.
So if you truly want to live as Jesus lived, then you’ve got to stop denying your feelings and look to them to help you reveal the truth of yourself, nature and God. Monitor your feelings through the day, if you detect you are doing or saying things to stop yourself feeling bad, then you’re living untrue to yourself – you’re denying some aspect of yourself – that one feeling. Jesus didn’t deny any aspects of himself, he didn’t deny one of his feelings. He truly expressed himself – all he felt. And so if you want to live as Jesus lived, then you have to express all you feel, and the truth will result – the true way for you.
withmarymagdaleneandjesus.weebly.com/blog.html
Please James,
Nobody here wants to read what you have to say about the Padgett Messages
‘Please James, Nobody here wants to read what you have to say about the Padgett Messages’ – oh I’m sorry your Lordship I didn’t know it was a closed shop. And you speak for all the people who read such comments. You’ve got tickets on yourself. I’m sure Jesus when he comes back will be the first to congratulate you… provided you let him into your little group. And this is not what is said in the Padgett Messages – it’s what Jesus has told me and what I’ve worked out for myself through my own feelings.
And by the way, what if it so turns out that the Padgett Messages are true – you’re sure going to have eat humble pie.
I’ve you’ve actually spoken to the Messiah, then you would know that His name is not really ‘Jesus’. I’ll be sure to eat that piece of pie when that day never comes.
2 Timothy 4:3: “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching.”
Now where’s the Shark-Gull gone!
And we wouldn’t want a bit of truth to ruin the party, now would we.
If** should have been the first word. I don’t want anyone thinking that “I’ve” spoken to the Messiah.
Jesus hasn’t revealed his soulname (but I guess you wouldn’t know about soulnames not being interested in The Urantia Book), so the name you call him is just as contrived as Jesus. And as ‘Jesus’ is familiar, so he says he’s happy to keep using that. It’s just like God, as God hasn’t revealed His SoulName to Creation yet either, but when we follow Jesus, living true to our feelings and partaking of the Divine Love, as part of the truth that comes up within us, we feel to call God our Heavenly Father; just as when you follow Mary M, you’ll feel you want to also call God your Heavenly Mother. And being the child of loving Parents, so you relate to God as your Mother and Father, just as Mary and Jesus relate to God – because we’re following them through our feelings and not with our minds.
2 Timothy 4:3: “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching.”
Having itching? – What does that mean? Has someone got fleas?
And how do you not know the Padgett Messages are not sound doctrine and that you’re all apart of the false teachers you’re always going on about.
Ditto. The Devil
plays James like a violin.
Na, the Devil wouldn’t bother with the likes of me, he’s having too much fun with you guys.
Omega @8.44
I have, it is Jesus just like the spelling sounds but I know who has’nt and is lieng
“And how do you not know the Padgett Messages are not sound doctrine and that you’re all apart of the false teachers you’re always going on about.”
I know this because I have the ability to bend my beliefs to fit the Scripture, whereas you tend to bend the Scripture to fit your beliefs. History proves the written Word and the constellations demand it.
Do you have any idea how many people in the world are claiming to be transmitting messages from Jesus and Mary?
2 Corinthians 11:14: “And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.”
Yup, I do have an idea as to how many people are claiming to speak with Jesus and Mary, and there’ll be a lot more before it’s done.
But none of those people claiming to speak with them are advocating the doing of ones Feeling- and Soul-Healing. That being, looking to ones feelings for the truth of ones soul.
“there’ll be a lot more before it’s done.”
I really do hope that your awaken to the ramifications of this statement. It may not sound like a big deal to some, but you’ll be in for a very big surprise here soon.
I sure hope so!
dear james, i’m kinda worried about you. the comment you wrote has the words: you, yourself, your, we, we’ll, we’re, our, you’ve, you’re, oneself, ones, one can, one has, us, ourselves, me. i counted these words 50 times! you are in the new age religion? watch out for the sin of the pride of life. Yah doesn’t make it all about us. He wants you to make it all about Him. demons can put thoughts in your head. jesus did the will of His Father always. Jesus (Yahushua) didn’t sin cause He knew all Yah’s laws. He was called the Word, for pete’s sake. He said to deny yourself and take up My stake and follow Me. matthew 16:24. sorry to tell you this: mary died just like all humans do. she is no help to you right now. no one has gone to heaven except Yahusha. love you.
Dear Anonymous, please don’t fret about me. You see, my parents told me to not be myself, to stop being how I wanted to be and to be like them. They turned me away from myself, made me become untrue to myself, and made me wrongly believe that being how they wanted me to be was the right way for me to be. And they said they loved me, that how they treated me was being loving. And I believed them and believed I love them, until I started to look to the feelings I was denying. And when I stopped denying them, allowing them to have their say, I discovered that I didn’t love my parents because they didn’t truly love me. It was all a con. And I am continuing to face this truth of myself.
And now here you are telling me the same thing, only you are saying Jesus is the same as my parents: that I should stop being true to myself and honouring my feelings and give myself over to God. That I should deny myself and take up My stake and follow Jesus. And by living untrue to myself, by denying how I really feel, I am living the Father’s Will. Which is still only doing what my parents said I was do.
And this is the error you make, for as I finally discovered for myself, that if I actually live completely true to all my feelings, being my true self, THEN I AM LIVING GOD’S WILL. And it’s so easy. To live the will of God all we need to do is live true to the will of our own soul. And you can’t live true to your own soul if your denying parts of yourself.
And unlike the New Agers, I am talking about fully accepting, embracing and expressing ALL my feelings, good and bad, whilst I long for the truth of them. I might use the same words as you say the New Agers use, but it’s the intention that is what needs to be looked at. The New Agers are still doing what you do, using their minds to deny bad feelings, all to maintain the control over their feelings, just in a different way to how you Christians do, but it still amounts to the same thing. You’re still living denying many aspects of yourself, and so whilst you are doing this you are still evil, because irrespective of what you believe in and even your relationship with God and Jesus, you’re still living untrue to your own soul. And living untrue to your own soul is NOT living true to God’s Soul.
Jesus did the will of his Father always because Jesus always lived true to his feelings, he never denied one aspect of himself. So do you see, you’ve got it around the wrong way, which is understandable because it’s how we’ve all been parented. We are told to honour thy mother and father, we are to treat then as gods. We are told to always obey our parents, we are never to rebel against them. And so we are to take all they dish out to us and say thank you and be very grateful to them for all they’ve done for us, even when we don’t feel loved, even when we feel unhappy.
The Father and Mother want us to feel happy and loved, as I’m sure Jesus does to. And for us to feel happy, we need to live true to ourselves. And by adhering to the tenets of the religions of the world, one will never be truly happy, only happy according to ones mind – not happy and loved according to ones TRUE feelings.
This is amazing! Look at all the jibber jabber in the article and comment section. You guys tire me out with these lengthy posts that just go ’round and ’round. I do not believe in the bible. I belive it was a clever book written by man, which expressed their sentiments of that time.
Get a life guys! Go out and have some drinks and live a little. Don’t obsess over all this dogma and interpretation of scripture. Jesus guys, Do you guys ever get laid? What kind of friends you must have to listen to this bickering from you. You guys are so far deep into this crap, that I think it may be too late for you.
Have a drink, have a smoke, nothing really matters.
-Brandon
“Have a drink, have a smoke, nothing really matters.”
That’s one of the most cowardly posts that I have ever read.
Isaiah 22:13
(Note the number 13 for rebellion, which is what this exemplifies)
And behold joy and gladness, slaying oxen and killing sheep, eating flesh and drinking wine: let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die.”
That was the attitude of the Jews when Judea was besieged by invading armies. That attitude, more than perhaps all others, utterly infuriated the Most High.
Even in the face of impending destruction, their necks were stiffened and their eyes were shut. Rather than considering the meaning behind the coming calamity and trying to at least make amends for their crimes and offenses against the Most High, the Jews thought they should have one last party before they died, because “nothing really matters” anyway.
Sorry, but going to Paul to get truth is a mistake.
Did Paul claim to be the Way, Truth, Life ?
What does someone believe that Y’shua didn’t know what
He was doing with the words that He spoke, and that they
need a Paul to help Y’shua make things clear?
How many contradictions are needed to be pointed out from Paul before a person
will go only to Y’shua the Lord and Saviour, who said that
it is His words that save you and set you free ?
“He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge;
the WORD THAT I HAVE SPOKEN will be his judge on the last day.”
John.12:48
Mercy sakes !